MIDI - The complete lowdown?

I think we're closing in on what the heck I'm trying to say...

Yeah, my ideal scenario is this: record virtual instrument/MIDI track in cakewalk, then "mix down" track in cakewalk to wav file, which I can then fly into CEP to edit/mix normally.

The quality of my sound card is such that I don't want it involved in this process at all.

You said that Cakewalk can mixdown multiple MIDI and audio files into one file - if that's the case then one would assume it could also just mix down *one* file (the MIDI file). Of course it wouldn't really be "mixing" with anything - it would just be a way to turn it into a wav file.

I guess I was kinda hoping for some Cakewalk user to appear and say "Yes! I do this all the time! It works like a charm!" Cause what's troubling me is I can't find anything in the Cakewalk manual or on the website that hints at this seemingly simple task being possible.

I guess I'm just gonna have to knuckle down and play with these programs a little more.

Chris

Chris - a MIDI Out is a MIDI Out.  I can load a MIDI file into Winamp or Cakewalk, press Record on CEP, and record the output of either Winamp or Cakewalk.  I don't see why that would not also be the case for the MIDI Out of Native Instrument's B4 softsynth.  And CEP / Audition isn't going to know or care whether the MIDI-signal-turned-into-audio is coming from an already-formed MIDI file that is being played or is coming from you playing your keyboard live through the B4 softsynth.  In either case MIDI notes go out the MIDI Out and get turned into audio, and that is what CEP / Audition picks up.

I think we are still left with the question of whether the sound-card is required to turn MIDI into audio.  SteveG used to have an audio card that contained no MIDI.  If he has a softsynth on his computer that can play a MIDI file, he might try recording the output of the softsynth into CEP / Audition and see what happens.

At any rate, Chris, download one or all of the files listed below.  Launch Cakewalk or the Windows Media Player (or both).  Load a MIDI file.  Launch CEP / Audition and click on File > New.  Set the desired parameters.  Click on record in CEP / Audition.  THEN click on play in Cakewalk or Windows Media Player.  You only need to play a few seconds of the song to see if the recording works.  Press Stop on Cakewalk or Windows Media Player.  Then press Stop on CEP / Audition.  If a wavefile is present, know then that you could most likely do the same thing with the B4 softsynth, with you playing live.

The owner of the site hosting the links below says he has permission to offer these MIDI files.  However, if the forum moderators don't want these links here, I will remove them - or the moderators can.  I was looking for MIDI files that would show off the organ in the GM.DLS sound set that seems to be the default in WinXP.  So I went to a site that features black gospel.  Ignore the titles and just enjoy the music.  It's up-tempo.  Right-click on the link, then select "save link target as".  It may take a few seconds for the save dialogue box to come up.  Wait for it.

http://www.godsgospel.com/midis/Jesus_Ill_Never_Medley.mid

http://www.godsgospel.com/midis/Ive_Been_Belivered.mid
(don't correct the spelling of "Belivered" - that's the link spelling)

http://midistudio.com/midi/Mel_Webb/Ol'time.mid    (all organ)

If SteveG is sufficiently good-humored, he might download one or all of these and see if he can get them to play on his setup.  (Or am I remembering incorrectly that it is MIDI-impaired?).

... my sound card is just a crappy little Avance card that came with the computer. It doesn't appear to have any MIDI in.

Score one for me being tired.  Chris, I forgot that your setup may be MIDI impaired as well.  If so, then you probably cannot play the files I gave the links to.  You say you do not have a MIDI In - but I didn't see where you say whether you can play MIDI files.  When you load a MIDI file into Cakewalk or the Windows Media Player, do you get any sound out of your speakers?

Actually, you don't need to play the MIDI file in Winamp or WMP to record it in CEP. You can just open it in CEP's multitrack, play it, then record it in a different track.

The trouble with this method, and variations of it, is that any method of MIDI-to-wav that relies on *recording* the output in CEP (or anything else) involves going through my sound card, which then adds a layer of noise to the file, which ain't no good.

Or am I missing something in what you're saying?

Chris

Launch Cakewalk or the Windows Media Player (or both).  Load a MIDI file.  ... click on play in Cakewalk or Windows Media Player.  ... If a wavefile is present (in CEP / Audition), know then that you could most likely do the same thing with the B4 softsynth, with you playing live.

Just trying to think of a way for you test to whether you could play live through the B4 while recording with CEP / Audition.  If you can play out of Cakewalk, etc. and into CEP / Audition, then you could probably do the same with the B4.

Question to be answered:  can one go from MIDI keyboard into B4 softsynth and out into CEP / Audition without going through the soundcard?  

I'm intrigued by the question and have spent a good part of the day reading.  From what I've read, I can confirm SteveG's comments that some softsynths can render MIDI to wav without going through the soundcard.  Might need to use Virtual Audio Cables to connect the softsynth output to the CEP input.  But doable.  And the quality of the softsynth's  output vs. the soundcard's output would need to be tested.  

The question of whether the B4 can do this remains.  I'm going to download a demo and see what I can discover.  I'll post back with the results of my experiment.

Question to be answered:  can one go from MIDI keyboard into B4 softsynth and out into CEP / Audition without going through the soundcard?  

Isn't this what 'Hubi's Loop through' does? It's free...

Well, I've been nosing around and it seems there are plenty of free (or pretty cheap) utilities out there that convert midi to wav and don't go through the sound card - I just tried a demo of WavMaker that appeared to do it. There's so much I still don't understand about MIDI though, I may be misunderstanding the ease of this conversion.

For my purposes, it's not really necessary to be able to convert it in real-time, while I'm recording. I just need to know that once I record the midi track I can then turn it into a wav so I can work with it normally.

I'm getting the cables and adapters, etc. I need this week, so hopefully you'll all be hearing a tune with an organ in the Showcase forum soon!

There's still the problem of whether to move the keyboard into the room where the computer is, or move the computer...?

They're both pretty dang non-portable...

Chris

Hubi's is for making multiple midi connections and I don't think it will help Groucho do what he has in mind.  There's "VAC" (Virtual Audio Cable) which is not free and which I've never managed to get working.  (But that could be me....).  I'd expect the B4 to be able to output to wave within itself, not going through the soundcard, in which case you can then insert the resulting file into the AA MT, line it up with the tracks you were playing back while you recorded it, and there you are.

I'll put in my two cents.

MIDI - a simple code language for different music controllers/modules to communicate with each other. For instance, a simple keyboard sends code (note, velocity, cutoff) to where ever you want. Plug it into your respective midi in (or gameport) jack via the appropriate wire.

Now, you want to use a VSTi or Soundfont host... You can also find programs that use .wav and other simple formats. VSTi's are modules that you can use for many different types of things. For instance the organ, which has its own variables, to change the tone or vibrato, and then the note itself. Your midi controller (keyboard) might have knobs which you can assign to those variables. That simple. Soundfonts are merely groups of samples that make up an instrument. That said, soundfonts don't have the softsynth capabilities of the VSTi.

If youre looking for immediate implementation, go look at my freeware link topic, and CHOOSE -> http://audiomastersforum.net/amforum/viewtopic.php?t=1144

i personally suggest beginners to check out Modplug. It's not as advanced or modular as the others on the list, such as buzz, but it is a very good free, simple, sample sequencing "tracker" program. What you can do is simply set it up to recognize the midi in and your card you want to sound out, and drag in a wav file to an instrument window, enable midi, and youre off to play some sounds!

Once you learn the certain program, or --just ask me on PM or AIM screenname (click on my aim icon below)... You will easily be able to get your instrument going.

On the subject of ASIO, the current problem is you cannot run an asio driver signal into cooledit pro. asio means low latency when dealing with pressing a key, etc. What that means is, if you use asio, you will get pretty much a non noticeable delay when you press or change something. If you use other methods such as WDM or DirectX, and try to record it, you will want to change the buffers to get as low latency as you can without it clicking or popping.

WITH THAT SAID.... *sigh* (I have been working the midnight shift and it is now 8am and i chugged a lot of coffee and felt dizzy and nauseous all night) ... Heres my method as of late:

1. Load up modplug. Compose my music using my midi keyboard with .xi instrument files, .wav sample files, and vst effects, playing my guitar, singing, writing lyrics all the while.

2. Load postmod - this program is awesome, $15, www.magicfish.net which splits .it files (the sequenced song files exported from modplug) into various .wav files.

3. Take all the .wav files from the splitted .it file and launch adobe audition. Here I can tweek every sample just as if i have recorded each one. Then record my guitars, vocals, and whatever else I need to add over the composition.

4. Mix down, effects, etc.

Whew.

RonC

Chris has said that his sound card does not have a MIDI In port.  The couple of scenarios I presented above were geared specifically to testing whether or not Chris could play a MIDI file - given that his sound card does not have a MIDI In port.  Supposedly, WinXP can play MIDI through a sound card that does not support MIDI.  That is what I was trying to get Chris to test.  I am slowly getting all of my audio and MIDI software loaded onto the WinXP machine I have recently purchase - so I will be able to test this myself in short order.  The only problem is knowing how much I can rely on my results.  My sound card supports MIDI.  Chris' sound card supposedly does not.  I would trust Chris' results, then, in this testing before I would trust mine. (Results = can WinXP truely play a MIDI file when no MIDI-capable sound card is installed?).  In his post above, Ozpeter summarized what I expect Chris will discover with his system.

Re Virtual Audio Cable (VAC) -
http://spider.nrcde.ru/music/software/eng/vac.html

The demo version gives you one cable for free that you can play with.  The VAC passes digital data from one program to another.  Nothing passes through the sound card.  There is a small learning curve - but that is easily negotiated.  (I'm sure Ozpeter could make it work if he really needed to.)  The one cable is enough to check out the issues we have been discussing here.  However, I cannot yet say for certain that it works with WinXP.  I will be checking that out shortly and will report back.

Slightly OT:  In CEP/A's multitrack view, you can assign a different VAC-In to each track.  Which means you can have a separate source for input to each track in CEP/A's multitrack view.  In a different thread, Ozpeter and I discuss building a SynthEdit (softsynth) module that will play more than one soundfont at a time - so one could play a multi-track MIDI file using SynthEdit.  Unfortunately, SynthEdit only gives you one Audio out (at least in the free version that I downloaded) - so all soundfonts are mixed together with no control from the user when they hit the speakers.  I'm checking to see whether I can connect a different Virtual Audio Cable Out to each soundfont, and bypass SynthEdit's audio out altogether.  If I can do this, then each soundfont could be ported to its own distinct track in CEP/A.

Slightly OT:  I've launched CEP and Audition together (they are both open on my screen).  I've loaded a 4 track project in CEP; connected 4 Virtual Audio Cable Outs from each track in multitrack view; connected the 4 Virtual Audio Cable Ins to each of four tracks in Audition; launched CEP's mixer window; clicked "Play" in CEP and mixed the sound from the four tracks to my satisfaction with CEP's mixer window; then clicked on "Record" in Audition and "Play" in CEP.  In Audition, I end up with the same 4 tracks that I have in CEP - except that the sound among the tracks is now balanced more closely to what I desire.  Volume envelopes can still be employed where required to further fine-tune the mix.  But this is a lot quicker than doing everything with volume envelopes.  All of this stays in the digital realm, as the Virtual Audio Cables bypass the soundcard.

If you cannot route out of CEP and into Audition, then connect  Tracks 1-4 to individual Virutal Audio Cable outs; connect the 4 Virtual Audio Cable ins to Tracks 5 - 8 of the same software program (CEP or Audition).  Launch the CEP/A mixer and adjust to taste.  Then arm Tracks 5 - 8 to record, press "Play", and get the same result as you do in the paragraph above.

Depending on what you need to do, the Virtual Audio Cables can be a good investment.

Actually, you don't need to play the MIDI file in Winamp or WMP to record it in CEP. You can just open it in CEP's multitrack [Insert > MIDI from file], play it, then record it in a different track.

I just verified that you are correct.  However, on my non-WinXP computers, I do not have the option to select GM.DLS as my sound set when using CEP/A to play the MIDI file.  I can only play through the default soundcard sound set - which sounds pretty bad.  By playing out with Winamp and recording with CEP/A, I at least have the option of selecting the GM.DLS sound set to play through.  I haven't tested this yet on the WinXP computer.  But since GM.DLS seems to be the default sound set for WinXP, I presume that a MIDI file played with CEP/A would play through GM.DLS automatically.

Yikes, I'm getting seriously confused now...

So, okay. I *can* play MIDI files. No problem. I can record them through the sound card (not so hot). I can record them without going through the sound card via certain software (better).

But I'm still trying to understand all this "soundset" stuff. Here's a scenario:

Say, I record a guitar part normally. I then place the guitar track in Cakewalk (so I have something to play to) and record a MIDI track using the B4 software.

Then, I render the B4 track to wav via some *other* software (since I still haven't verified that Cakewalk can do this without going through the sound card) and fly both the tracks back to CEP for editing.

NOW... is the B4 file going to retain its B4 "soundset" now that it's been rendered to wav? When I did the test rendering last night with WavMaker, the rendered file had slighty different sound than the original MIDI file (same "notes", different soundset?)

Does this question make sense?

I'm starting to think MIDI stands for Migraine-Inducing Damn Inconvenience...

Chris

Hubi's is for making multiple midi connections and I don't think it will help Groucho do what he has in mind.  There's "VAC" (Virtual Audio Cable) which is not free and which I've never managed to get working.  (But that could be me....).  I'd expect the B4 to be able to output to wave within itself, not going through the soundcard, in which case you can then insert the resulting file into the AA MT, line it up with the tracks you were playing back while you recorded it, and there you are.

Yes, I was in too much of a hurry this morning, and mis-read the last part of the request....

Just a note to say that it works in WinXP. I'll post details and links tomorrow.

Cakewalk_____________Native Instrument's B4______________CEP
_____Hubi's Loopback -->_____________Virtual Audio Cable -->

This setup completely bypasses the soundcard. And my goodness, what nice organ tones that B4 produces!!!

Chris - don't worry. This is going to be easier than you think. However, the demo inserts tones throughout - even in the setup listed above. So you cannot use the demo to create usable music. And the price on the B4 seems to be close to $300? Are you aware of this?

NOW... is the B4 file going to retain its B4 "soundset" now that it's been rendered to wav?

Yes.  The "wav" sound that is produced by the B4 soundset is piped directly to CEP/A through the Virtual Audio Cable.  CEP/A then records that direct output from the B4.