MIDI - The complete lowdown?

Okay, if you got the time, I got some questions...

...You can use them to start practicing changing sound banks, making program changes, turning vibrato on and off, increasing and decreasing the volume, adding the right amount of reverb, panning each channel so each instrument sits nicely in the mix, adding chorus effects, and using or not using sustain.

I had assumed I would just render whatever I recorded in MIDI to a wav file and pull it into CEP, where I would mix as usual. Am I not going to be able to do that? I have to assume there's a way to turn MIDI into wav, right?

   But if all you can do is play through the funky little sound set that comes with some of the cheaper sound cards, you might get discouraged.  There is a world of difference between the cheesy sounds and what the Sound Canvas stuff in the GM.DLS sound set sounds like.

If you don't mind I need some clarification on this one. Isn't the virtual instrument (the B4 - or whichever) the "soundset"? How do these other "soundsets" come into play if I'm using a vst instrument?

Winamp is till the only MIDI player I have found that will let me switch among sound sets.  I installed Windows Media Player 9 on  Win98 SE and that defaults to the GM.DLS.  Now when I launch Windows Media Player 7.1 on Win98 SE, it also uses the GM.DLS sound set, where it did not before.  Interesting.

I'm kinda confused by that part too. Why would I need to involve audio players like Windows Media, or WInamp? I guess this goes back to my assumption that MIDI can be converted to a regular audio file. Otherwise, how does one use it in music which ends up on CDs, etc?

thanks,
Chris

I had assumed I would just render whatever I recorded in MIDI to a wav file and pull it into CEP, where I would mix as usual. Am I not going to be able to do that? I have to assume there's a way to turn MIDI into wav, right?

you can do this, but you have to export the midi file to a wav, and then mix in CEP.

yeah, i forgot to mention the 25 key thing on the oxygen8.  since i can't really play keyboard, this is fine for me (i use the one-hand method of playing anyway   )  they do make bigger controllers though.  i can't name of any right offhand, but they do exist.

Oh, dear...

There are several different ways of achieving a sensible output as a wav file, some of them involving hardware in soundcards in different ways, others with no soundcard involvement at all. I'll list all the possibilities that I'm aware of, and if I leave any out, somebody's bound to pick them up...

• You can send a MIDI stream back out of the PC to an external sound module and re-record it with the analog (or perhaps even S/PDIF) input on your soundcard. There are a few provisos with this, but they can be managed as a rule.
• With a Creative Lies soundcard, you can play soundfonts, and record the output - you need to set up the internal mixer appropriately.
• With most soundcards, you can play the internal synthesiser, and record the output, as above, but as a rule they won't let you render directly.
• You can play the Windows MIDI softsynth, and record the output, as before - same conditions apply.
• There are a few external soft-synth players around that also handle soundfonts, and will render them either directly or indirectly.
• There are packages like the Roland Virtual Sound Canvas, which will let you play them externally, (as a DXi or VSTi, see below) and also have a built-in utility for rendering any of the sounds they can create as WAV files directly. Thid may well apply to ither apps as well, but it is not universal.
• There are Virtual Instruments (VSTi and DXi) that can be played within some sequencer packages, and the output rendered within the package, or, by using an app like Rewire, can by linked to other packages that can record the Rewire link directly. This has the potential to be extremely flexible, but there are possible timing constraints on it.
  

I suppose that you could loosely sub-categorise MIDI handling into groups: Either it needs a soundcard, in which case it's very unlikely to render to WAV directly, or it doesn't, in which case it is very likely to have a direct rendering capability of some sort. Part of the confusion has arisen because there are several players that can play a MIDI file using an internal sequencer out of a soundcard. It's also possible that one or two of these will actually be able to render the output directly to a file... (groan)

Confused yet? I am!

Holy cow...!

Why couldn't I just have stayed happy recording guitar/piano stuff...

Okay, I think before I go any further I need to verify that either Cakewalk or Samplitude has some option for rendering MIDI into wav that *doesn't* involve routing it through the soundcard and recording it, since given the quality of my soundcard, my sound quality is gonna take a big hit if I have to do it that way.

I'm sure I can figure this out with some poking around, but I know there are folks around here who use Cakewalk and Samplitude. Anyone wanna speak up and let me know if this is possible within either of those programs?

Thanks for the info Steve - confusing but helpful...

Chris

Okay, I'm finally getting curious about MIDI and virtual instruments. ... I know CEP doesn't record it (MIDI), so I have an old copy of Cakewalk 9. Do I absolutely need to have a MIDI-in slot on my sound card in order to use these virtual instruments?

That wording made me think you wanted to learn how to create multi-track MIDI files.  The Cakewalk part threw me, because Cakewalk is/was one of the better packages to use for doing this on the computer.  But I think you really want to just use MIDI as another instrument for the multiple tracks you are laying down in CEP/Audition?  Organ in particular?  If so, then you don't need to know MIDI code for things like vibrato, sustain, panning, etc. - assuming you can control what you need to control from your keyboard.  If you wanted to create multi-track MIDI files, you would need to know those things.

The Roland Sound Canvas GM.DLS sound set that I mention above has a couple of pretty good organ settings.  That is why I mentioned it  - as you could check them out while waiting for your Native Instrument's B-4 and a MIDI In port.  I put Cakewalk on the WinXP machine and the GM.DLS soundset does show up as the default Windows MIDI sound set.  So if you save a MIDI file to your hard drive and load it into Cakewalk, it should play through the GM.DLS sound set.  In Cakewalk, look under "Tools > MIDI Devices > Output ports.  You should see it there.

Regarding Winamp, you could play a MIDI file with that player to hear what the GM.DLS sound set sounded like.  But you would not need to involve Winamp in the process if you are just playing through Native Instruments to lay another audio track down in CEP/Audition.

I see what you're saying now, bonnder. I think my utter ignorance of the subject matter may have cause my wording to be less than clear.

Yeah, I just want to use it as another instrument within the context of a normal audio session in CEP. I'm still having a hard time verifying if MIDI can be mixed down to wav or not. It seems odd that it wouldn't be possible (how else do people use MIDI in regular - not exclusively MIDI - songs?).

But my MIDI career is gonna have to be put on hold until next payday. $35 for a MIDI-to-Game Port converter! Another $30 or $40 for regular MIDI cables! Sheesh...

Chris

FWIW, I bought PC-MIDI cables that must be 8 feet long - DB15 at one end, a MIDI IN and MIDI OUT at the other.  $20.  Don't remember if it was at Best Buy or Circuit City.

Yeah, that's what I get for going to a music store. I guess it's time for a trek to the giant parking lots of chain-store land...

Chris

Just in case you were wondering, the Gameport to MIDI adaptor isn't just a lead with some connectors on - there's a little bit of electronics to provide suitable isolation for the input, and drive for the output. Yes, you could knock one up for yourself if you have the capability - it's not difficult.  The basic info is here. And if you were wondering where this is, as a rule it's built into the back of the gameport connector itself, and the cables are attached to the board, not the connector. It really is pretty small!

Yeah, that's what I get for going to a music store.

Try this
http://www.circuitcity.com/detail.jsp?c=1&b=g&qp=0&bookmark=bookmark_0&oid=27819&catoid=-11542

I'm still having a hard time verifying if MIDI can be mixed down to wav or not.

When you learn anything new, almost everything seems confusing until you get a grip on the language.  So hang in there - and realize that SteveG already provided the verification on the first page of this thread that, yes, MIDI can be mixed down to wav (rendered to wav).  I will second that verification.  I load a MIDI file in Winamp, open CEP, click "record" in CEP and "play" in Winamp - and record the output from Winamp into CEP (soundcard is Soundblaster 16).  I end up with a standard wav file.  Can save it in whatever format I desire that CEP supports.  (Search this forum and the Archives on "render" and you should get some hits on software that can be used to do this also.)

I didn't think the question waiting for an answer was whether you could turn a MIDI file into a wav file.  I thought we were waiting for a definitive answer on whether this process absolutely used the sound engine on the soundcard, or whether this could be accomplished purely within the software - using the processing power of the computer.  I think SteveG gave a broad answer to this question also.  Sometimes yes; sometimes no.  Depends on the program you are using.

zemlin Posted:
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FWIW, I bought PC-MIDI cables that must be 8 feet long - DB15 at one end, a MIDI IN and MIDI OUT at the other. $20.

As I alluded to previously... I bought my "Gameport to Midi" converter cable at Guitar Center and while it was marked somewhere in the neigborhood of $30-$35, they had no problem discounting it for $20.

 

Thanks for the link, Karl. Free shipping! I'm going with Circuit City I think. There isn't a Guitar Center within an hour's drive of me, and the local music stores are all humongously expensive.

And Steve, thanks for the link. I doubt I'll be brave enough to attempt something like that, but it's good to have handy in case.

So hang in there - and realize that SteveG already provided the verification on the first page of this thread that, yes, MIDI can be mixed down to wav (rendered to wav).  I will second that verification.  

I guess my wording continues to be unclear:)... I *do* realize that I can do the "play the midi and record it through the soundcard" thing, and I'm aware that there are MIDI-to-wav conversion softwares out there, and that some programs do it as well.

What I'm still trying to verify is whether Cakewalk or Samplitude, specifically, can *mix down* a MIDI into a wav file. I only started fooling with each of these programs a few days ago, but I haven't found this function in either yet, which confuses me somewhat (and makes me think I'm just missing something).

I *know* there are Cakewalk users here (Graeme, where are ya?). How do you guys encorporate MIDI tracks into other audio tracks and then mix everything down to a wav file for burning to CD? Do you do the "through the soundcard" method for each MIDI track?

Chris

(Graeme, where are ya?)

Unavoidably absent again for a little while - but he'll be back!

Chris - you can import audio tracks into Cakewalk.  So you could sit there with, say, 3 MIDI tracks and 5 audio tracks and mix them all together within Cakewalk.  Is this your question then:  how do you mix all those tracks down into a single audio file, like you can do with multiple audio tracks in CEP / Audition Track View?  On the other hand, I believe you can import MIDI tracks into CEP / Audition.  So, in CEP / Audition you could sit there with, say, 3 MIDI tracks and 5 audio tracks just like in Cakewalk.  There is where my knowledge gets fuzzy.  I believe you cannot control volume and panning of MIDI tracks from within CEP / Audition like you can from within Cakewalk.  You must first edit the MIDI tracks from inside a MIDI editor.  I believe CEP / Audition can only send the MIDI code out to the synth as it is.  So it seems that it would be harder / impossible to mix a combination of MIDI and Audio tracks down to a single file from within CEP / Audition.  Does this info help to narrow your question(s) down a bit?

A way around that would be to simply play your MIDI keyboard while playing a reference track or two from  CEP / Audition and record your MIDI output (that is now audio) into CEP / Audition on its own track.  But I think you've said that you already realize you can do that.