AudioMasters

Okay, I'm finally getting curious about MIDI and virtual instruments after playing around with the Native Instruments B-4 at friend's house.

So, to all you guys using MIDI: I know CEP doesn't record it, so I have an old copy of Cakewalk 9. Do I absolutely need to have a MIDI-in slot on my sound card in order to use these virtual instruments? I don't generally record into the computer, so my sound card is just a crappy little Avance card that came with the computer. It doesn't appear to have any MIDI in.

Is there anything else I need in order to connect a keyboard to the computer and control virtual instruments? Is there a decent "MIDI for dummies" tutorial anywhere? I've looked all over the net and even the basic MIDI primers assume a level of knowledge I appear not to have.

I mean, I've been devouring info about audio the last few years, but till now I've never had the slightest interest in MIDI so I know, like, absolutely nothing about it. I barely even know what it is.:)

Any assistance from some of you MIDI gurus?

thanks,
Chris

Chris - I have a good bit of external MIDI hardware that I am pretty proficient with (hardware sequencer, sound modules, keyboards, reverb, etc). It's good-quality stuff, so I have not ever bothered with PC-based MIDI stuff. At least until Ozpeter started talking recently about SynthEdit and soundfonts and piqued my curiousity. So I also recently have embarked on a crash course in learning PC-based MIDI. I have a few questions of my own that I need answered, and have been toying with the idea of starting a thread similar to the one you have just started. So let's try to get you up to speed, get my questions answered as well, and construct a mini-tutorial on PC-based MIDI that will be helpful to those interested in softsynths and soundfonts. This subject is pretty solidly tied to CEP / Audition in that you can play a multi-track MIDI file and record the sound output (not MIDI code output) with CEP / Audition, and then further manipulate the sound. Then burn it to CD, or make MP3 files, etc.

So, to start - a few questions:

1. What operating system do you use? Important, because Windows includes a MIDI soundset licensed from Roland that is a simple version of their Sound Canvas and it is really quite nice (compared to PC-based soundsets, not external hardware soundmodules). It is called "GM.DLS". In Win98 it is at Windows>System 32>Drivers. In my version of WinXP it is just in Windows. Don't know about Win2K, etc.  You can use a program such as Awave Studio to extract the individual sounds from GM.DLS and turn them into *.SF2 soundfont files.

2. Do you have Winamp installed on your computer? On Win98, I am discovering that this is the only player that can access the GM.DLS soundset. I can't get to it with Windows Media Player up to 7.1, Calkwalk Pro 9 or through "Control Panel > Multimedia > MIDI tab. But with my version of WinXP, the GM.DLS is the default soundset used by WinXP. I haven't installed Cakewalk on the WinXP machine yet. But since it seems to default to the Windows default, I'm assuming that Cakewalk will also use the GM.DLS soundset.

3. You do not need a MIDI port on your sound card to be able to manipulate MIDI files with MIDI software or play them through Winamp, Windows Media Player, softsynths, etc. But you would need to copy MIDI files to your hard drive before you could do this. There is even software that will turn your computer keyboard into a music keyboard - with the ability to play chords and all. So you could technically "play" a song and record it with MIDI recording software, and thus create your own MIDI files. Or use Step Entry. But either of these approaches will be painfully slow compared to what you could do if you had an external music keyboard connected to your computer. But for that connection, your audio card would need to have a MIDI In Port. If you have a slot available on your MOBO (motherboard?), get a cheap Soundblaster.

4. There are loads of MIDI files available on the Internet. Later on in the thread, after I have had time to pull together a few good links, I will post them here.  You can use these if you don't have the ability to create your own.

5. When training people in computer-related functions, I have had best results by outlining a project I want them to complete. That gives them a focus for their learning efforts that helps avoid the "where do I start in order to learn this stuff" syndrome. I will suggest that approach for you. What would you like to do? Think of something rather straighforward and reasonably simple. Tell us here, and we will tell you the MIDI information you need to know in order to make it happen. When you have successfully completed that project, tell us another one. We can then repeat the process. As you learn things about MIDI, your projects can get correspondingly more complex. And we will have constructed a tutorial in the process.

thanks for the reply, bonnder:

Basically, I'm just interested in being able to connect my keyboard to the computer and control vst instruments like the Native Instruments stuff - and record it, obviously.

I don't have much interest in playing with other people's midi files, although I will of course want to be able to edit my own. I'm assuming there's some way to render MIDI files to wav files?

I had assumed this was something that would require software other than CEP/Audition. Geez, I'm such a beginner on this stuff. It's kind of intimidating. I'm still not quite clear on the difference between VST instruments, MIDI, soundfonts, etc. This is all just totally brand-new to me.

I don't necessarily expect anyone to give a whole MIDI primer in a couple of posts - I was just hoping for a nudge in the right direction.:) And from what you're saying, it looks like I'm going to have to get me a soundcard with a MIDI in.

So, if I have such a soundcard, plus a keyboard with MIDI out, plus a multitrack program like Cakewalk or Samplitude (both of which I have access to) that accepts VSTi, is there anything standing in the way of me turning my keyboard into a Hammond, via the Native Instruments B4 software? I'll then of course move the recorded files back to CEP - dang that Cakewalk interface is UUUUGLY! Samplitude's a little better, but fooling with these other programs has really reminded me how incredibly intuative-feeling (and *looking*) CEP/Audition is.

Oh, I've got Windows XP Pro.

thanks,
Chris

Not necessarily... do you have a game port of any description on your PC? For most 'normal' soundcards, it's the gameport that gets repurposed as a MIDI port - all you need is the converter lead, and they don't cost much.

Go to Guitar Center and ask for a.. Game Port to Midi Converter cable.  They'll have them for about 20 bucks and your set.

 :wink:

MIDI uses serial communications ... but you can't use the standard COM1 port because of the wierd BAUD rate. The MIDI/GAMEPORT has its own baud rate crystal timebase. The normal COM ports go 300,600,1200,2400,4800,9600,19.2K,38.4K etc. which has no possibility of being 31.25K BAUD for MIDI.
I found that out the hard way by trying to generate MIDI codes from an old TRS-80. Can't be done. You have to construct your own hardware to emulate MIDI code!!!
 :(
Otherwise, you could download MIDI files more easily for analysis!

Whoops, you lost me there Robert.:)

Are you saying that the game port *isn't* going to work? I'm not at my computer to check, but I'm fairly certain I do have a game port on it, and I was gonna stop on the way home tonight and grab one of the converters Steve & Voodoo mentioned.

CHris

COM port does not equal GAME port.  The GAME port is a DB15 and colored YELLOW on modern motherboards.

He's talking about the serial com ports (the ones that you used to plug old mice and external modems into) - not the games port. If you have a games port (that's the D connector with 15 pins, not 9), there's no reason at all that you shouldn't be able to configure it. I haven't tried this yet, but I believe that if you enable your on-board sound (if you have it on an ATX), the games port that this gives you access to should work fine. I really ought to try it sometime and see...

Alrighty - I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for the help, folks.

Chris

i just bought a midi controller the other day.  i was hating midi myself, but something made me decide to go ahead and give it a try.  it seems to be alright so far.  the controller that i bought works through USB, so there is no need for a midi port.  simply plug it in to a usb port on your pc, and off you go.

m-audio oxygen8 is the name of the controller.

I've done it with the game port, and it does work.  I picked up an E-MU SoundEngine for cheap a while back, and have an old Miracle Piano keyboard.  I can make MIDI stuff work both ways - but playing existing MIDI files is about the limit of my capabilities and MIDI knowledge.

I looked at that Oxygen8 thingie. The idea of going in via USB is way cool, but no way I could live with 25 dinky little keys.:)

I guess it depends on the needs of the user. For a lot of people, it sounds like any little keyboard will do fine for their purposes. But I need to really be able to PLAY the thing, so I think my digital piano should do the trick.

Chris

No.

Your keyboard simply generates MIDI code.  Play up a storm.  At some point, that code will be directed by you into the Native Instruments B4 software (do you have a link for that?), and if done properly, you will enjoy what you hear.

The "art" is going to come in patching all that MIDI code through the correct ins and outs of the various technology standards that are out there.  That is where you are going to need to develop some skill.  And that is why I mentioned downloading MIDI files.  You can use them to start practicing changing sound banks, making program changes, turning vibrato on and off, increasing and decreasing the volume, adding the right amount of reverb, panning each channel so each instrument sits nicely in the mix, adding chorus effects, and using or not using sustain.  All of these are controlled through MIDI code.  If you have Cakewalk Pro 9, you can see a good bit of this if you have a MIDI file that makes use of it.  And all of this can be done without an audio card that has a MIDI In port.  But if all you can do is play through the funky little sound set that comes with some of the cheaper sound cards, you might get discouraged.  There is a world of difference between the cheesy sounds and what the Sound Canvas stuff in the GM.DLS sound set sounds like.

** Edit - oops - you did say you have WinXP Pro.  So if you are using Windows Media Player you should be hearing the GM.DLS sounds.  But if you play through Cakewalk, do you hear the same sounds?  I haven't loaded Cakewalk on my WinXP computer so I don't yet know the answer to that question.  </End Edit>


I'm still pulling some links together and also some questions.  I still want to put together a bit of a tutorial and get some of my questions answered in the process.  Groucho, sounds like you still have a few questions of your own.

I'll get the ball rolling.  Anybody care to give a short description that would highlight the differences between the following:  DX; DXi; VST; VSTi; ASIO; DLS; SF2; Direct Sound; and any others in the general category that I may be forgetting?  In my efforts to find a MIDI player that would use the GM.DLS sound set, I ran across all of these terms - as each player could handle its own subset of these technologies, but not all of them.

Winamp is till the only MIDI player I have found that will let me switch among sound sets.  I installed Windows Media Player 9 on  Win98 SE and that defaults to the GM.DLS.  Now when I launch Windows Media Player 7.1 on Win98 SE, it also uses the GM.DLS sound set, where it did not before.  Interesting.

Same here.  FWIW, when I first started out (using Cakewalk) I had an SR-16 drum machine hooked up to my game port and it worked fine.

 :wink:

Okay, if you got the time, I got some questions...:D



I had assumed I would just render whatever I recorded in MIDI to a wav file and pull it into CEP, where I would mix as usual. Am I not going to be able to do that? I have to assume there's a way to turn MIDI into wav, right?



If you don't mind I need some clarification on this one. Isn't the virtual instrument (the B4 - or whichever) the "soundset"? How do these other "soundsets" come into play if I'm using a vst instrument?



I'm kinda confused by that part too.:) Why would I need to involve audio players like Windows Media, or WInamp? I guess this goes back to my assumption that MIDI can be converted to a regular audio file. Otherwise, how does one use it in music which ends up on CDs, etc?

thanks,
Chris

you can do this, but you have to export the midi file to a wav, and then mix in CEP.

yeah, i forgot to mention the 25 key thing on the oxygen8.  since i can't really play keyboard, this is fine for me (i use the one-hand method of playing anyway  :) )  they do make bigger controllers though.  i can't name of any right offhand, but they do exist.

Oh, dear...

There are several different ways of achieving a sensible output as a wav file, some of them involving hardware in soundcards in different ways, others with no soundcard involvement at all. I'll list all the possibilities that I'm aware of, and if I leave any out, somebody's bound to pick them up...

• You can send a MIDI stream back out of the PC to an external sound module and re-record it with the analog (or perhaps even S/PDIF) input on your soundcard. There are a few provisos with this, but they can be managed as a rule.
• With a Creative Lies soundcard, you can play soundfonts, and record the output - you need to set up the internal mixer appropriately.
• With most soundcards, you can play the internal synthesiser, and record the output, as above, but as a rule they won't let you render directly.
• You can play the Windows MIDI softsynth, and record the output, as before - same conditions apply.
• There are a few external soft-synth players around that also handle soundfonts, and will render them either directly or indirectly.
• There are packages like the Roland Virtual Sound Canvas, which will let you play them externally, (as a DXi or VSTi, see below) and also have a built-in utility for rendering any of the sounds they can create as WAV files directly. Thid may well apply to ither apps as well, but it is not universal.
• There are Virtual Instruments (VSTi and DXi) that can be played within some sequencer packages, and the output rendered within the package, or, by using an app like Rewire, can by linked to other packages that can record the Rewire link directly. This has the potential to be extremely flexible, but there are possible timing constraints on it.
  

I suppose that you could loosely sub-categorise MIDI handling into groups: Either it needs a soundcard, in which case it's very unlikely to render to WAV directly, or it doesn't, in which case it is very likely to have a direct rendering capability of some sort. Part of the confusion has arisen because there are several players that can play a MIDI file using an internal sequencer out of a soundcard. It's also possible that one or two of these will actually be able to render the output directly to a file... (groan)

Confused yet? I am!

Holy cow...!

Why couldn't I just have stayed happy recording guitar/piano stuff...:)

Okay, I think before I go any further I need to verify that either Cakewalk or Samplitude has some option for rendering MIDI into wav that *doesn't* involve routing it through the soundcard and recording it, since given the quality of my soundcard, my sound quality is gonna take a big hit if I have to do it that way.

I'm sure I can figure this out with some poking around, but I know there are folks around here who use Cakewalk and Samplitude. Anyone wanna speak up and let me know if this is possible within either of those programs?

Thanks for the info Steve - confusing but helpful...:)

Chris

That wording made me think you wanted to learn how to create multi-track MIDI files.  The Cakewalk part threw me, because Cakewalk is/was one of the better packages to use for doing this on the computer.  But I think you really want to just use MIDI as another instrument for the multiple tracks you are laying down in CEP/Audition?  Organ in particular?  If so, then you don't need to know MIDI code for things like vibrato, sustain, panning, etc. - assuming you can control what you need to control from your keyboard.  If you wanted to create multi-track MIDI files, you would need to know those things.

The Roland Sound Canvas GM.DLS sound set that I mention above has a couple of pretty good organ settings.  That is why I mentioned it  - as you could check them out while waiting for your Native Instrument's B-4 and a MIDI In port.  I put Cakewalk on the WinXP machine and the GM.DLS soundset does show up as the default Windows MIDI sound set.  So if you save a MIDI file to your hard drive and load it into Cakewalk, it should play through the GM.DLS sound set.  In Cakewalk, look under "Tools > MIDI Devices > Output ports.  You should see it there.

Regarding Winamp, you could play a MIDI file with that player to hear what the GM.DLS sound set sounded like.  But you would not need to involve Winamp in the process if you are just playing through Native Instruments to lay another audio track down in CEP/Audition.

I see what you're saying now, bonnder. I think my utter ignorance of the subject matter may have cause my wording to be less than clear.:D

Yeah, I just want to use it as another instrument within the context of a normal audio session in CEP. I'm still having a hard time verifying if MIDI can be mixed down to wav or not. It seems odd that it wouldn't be possible (how else do people use MIDI in regular - not exclusively MIDI - songs?).

But my MIDI career is gonna have to be put on hold until next payday. $35 for a MIDI-to-Game Port converter! Another $30 or $40 for regular MIDI cables! Sheesh...

Chris

FWIW, I bought PC-MIDI cables that must be 8 feet long - DB15 at one end, a MIDI IN and MIDI OUT at the other.  $20.  Don't remember if it was at Best Buy or Circuit City.

Yeah, that's what I get for going to a music store.:) I guess it's time for a trek to the giant parking lots of chain-store land...

Chris

Just in case you were wondering, the Gameport to MIDI adaptor isn't just a lead with some connectors on - there's a little bit of electronics to provide suitable isolation for the input, and drive for the output. Yes, you could knock one up for yourself if you have the capability - it's not difficult.  The basic info is here (http://www.jordanautomations.com/midiinterface.html). And if you were wondering where this is, as a rule it's built into the back of the gameport connector itself, and the cables are attached to the board, not the connector. It really is pretty small!

Try this
http://www.circuitcity.com/detail.jsp?c=1&b=g&qp=0&bookmark=bookmark_0&oid=27819&catoid=-11542

When you learn anything new, almost everything seems confusing until you get a grip on the language.  So hang in there - and realize that SteveG already provided the verification on the first page of this thread that, yes, MIDI can be mixed down to wav (rendered to wav).  I will second that verification.  I load a MIDI file in Winamp, open CEP, click "record" in CEP and "play" in Winamp - and record the output from Winamp into CEP (soundcard is Soundblaster 16).  I end up with a standard wav file.  Can save it in whatever format I desire that CEP supports.  (Search this forum and the Archives on "render" and you should get some hits on software that can be used to do this also.)

I didn't think the question waiting for an answer was whether you could turn a MIDI file into a wav file.  I thought we were waiting for a definitive answer on whether this process absolutely used the sound engine on the soundcard, or whether this could be accomplished purely within the software - using the processing power of the computer.  I think SteveG gave a broad answer to this question also.  Sometimes yes; sometimes no.  Depends on the program you are using.

As I alluded to previously... I bought my "Gameport to Midi" converter cable at Guitar Center and while it was marked somewhere in the neigborhood of $30-$35, they had no problem discounting it for $20.

 :wink:

Thanks for the link, Karl. Free shipping! I'm going with Circuit City I think. There isn't a Guitar Center within an hour's drive of me, and the local music stores are all humongously expensive.

And Steve, thanks for the link. I doubt I'll be brave enough to attempt something like that, but it's good to have handy in case.:)





I guess my wording continues to be unclear:)... I *do* realize that I can do the "play the midi and record it through the soundcard" thing, and I'm aware that there are MIDI-to-wav conversion softwares out there, and that some programs do it as well.

What I'm still trying to verify is whether Cakewalk or Samplitude, specifically, can *mix down* a MIDI into a wav file. I only started fooling with each of these programs a few days ago, but I haven't found this function in either yet, which confuses me somewhat (and makes me think I'm just missing something).

I *know* there are Cakewalk users here (Graeme, where are ya?). How do you guys encorporate MIDI tracks into other audio tracks and then mix everything down to a wav file for burning to CD? Do you do the "through the soundcard" method for each MIDI track?

Chris

Unavoidably absent again for a little while - but he'll be back!

Chris - you can import audio tracks into Cakewalk.  So you could sit there with, say, 3 MIDI tracks and 5 audio tracks and mix them all together within Cakewalk.  Is this your question then:  how do you mix all those tracks down into a single audio file, like you can do with multiple audio tracks in CEP / Audition Track View?  On the other hand, I believe you can import MIDI tracks into CEP / Audition.  So, in CEP / Audition you could sit there with, say, 3 MIDI tracks and 5 audio tracks just like in Cakewalk.  There is where my knowledge gets fuzzy.  I believe you cannot control volume and panning of MIDI tracks from within CEP / Audition like you can from within Cakewalk.  You must first edit the MIDI tracks from inside a MIDI editor.  I believe CEP / Audition can only send the MIDI code out to the synth as it is.  So it seems that it would be harder / impossible to mix a combination of MIDI and Audio tracks down to a single file from within CEP / Audition.  Does this info help to narrow your question(s) down a bit?

A way around that would be to simply play your MIDI keyboard while playing a reference track or two from  CEP / Audition and record your MIDI output (that is now audio) into CEP / Audition on its own track.  But I think you've said that you already realize you can do that.

I think we're closing in on what the heck I'm trying to say...:)

Yeah, my ideal scenario is this: record virtual instrument/MIDI track in cakewalk, then "mix down" track in cakewalk to wav file, which I can then fly into CEP to edit/mix normally.

The quality of my sound card is such that I don't want it involved in this process at all.

You said that Cakewalk can mixdown multiple MIDI and audio files into one file - if that's the case then one would assume it could also just mix down *one* file (the MIDI file). Of course it wouldn't really be "mixing" with anything - it would just be a way to turn it into a wav file.

I guess I was kinda hoping for some Cakewalk user to appear and say "Yes! I do this all the time! It works like a charm!" Cause what's troubling me is I can't find anything in the Cakewalk manual or on the website that hints at this seemingly simple task being possible.

I guess I'm just gonna have to knuckle down and play with these programs a little more.

Chris

Chris - a MIDI Out is a MIDI Out.  I can load a MIDI file into Winamp or Cakewalk, press Record on CEP, and record the output of either Winamp or Cakewalk.  I don't see why that would not also be the case for the MIDI Out of Native Instrument's B4 softsynth.  And CEP / Audition isn't going to know or care whether the MIDI-signal-turned-into-audio is coming from an already-formed MIDI file that is being played or is coming from you playing your keyboard live through the B4 softsynth.  In either case MIDI notes go out the MIDI Out and get turned into audio, and that is what CEP / Audition picks up.

I think we are still left with the question of whether the sound-card is required to turn MIDI into audio.  SteveG used to have an audio card that contained no MIDI.  If he has a softsynth on his computer that can play a MIDI file, he might try recording the output of the softsynth into CEP / Audition and see what happens.

At any rate, Chris, download one or all of the files listed below.  Launch Cakewalk or the Windows Media Player (or both).  Load a MIDI file.  Launch CEP / Audition and click on File > New.  Set the desired parameters.  Click on record in CEP / Audition.  THEN click on play in Cakewalk or Windows Media Player.  You only need to play a few seconds of the song to see if the recording works.  Press Stop on Cakewalk or Windows Media Player.  Then press Stop on CEP / Audition.  If a wavefile is present, know then that you could most likely do the same thing with the B4 softsynth, with you playing live.

The owner of the site hosting the links below says he has permission to offer these MIDI files.  However, if the forum moderators don't want these links here, I will remove them - or the moderators can.  I was looking for MIDI files that would show off the organ in the GM.DLS sound set that seems to be the default in WinXP.  So I went to a site that features black gospel.  Ignore the titles and just enjoy the music.  It's up-tempo.  Right-click on the link, then select "save link target as".  It may take a few seconds for the save dialogue box to come up.  Wait for it.

http://www.godsgospel.com/midis/Jesus_Ill_Never_Medley.mid

http://www.godsgospel.com/midis/Ive_Been_Belivered.mid
(don't correct the spelling of "Belivered" - that's the link spelling)

http://midistudio.com/midi/Mel_Webb/Ol'time.mid    (all organ)

If SteveG is sufficiently good-humored, he might download one or all of these and see if he can get them to play on his setup.  (Or am I remembering incorrectly that it is MIDI-impaired?).

Score one for me being tired.  Chris, I forgot that your setup may be MIDI impaired as well.  If so, then you probably cannot play the files I gave the links to.  You say you do not have a MIDI In - but I didn't see where you say whether you can play MIDI files.  When you load a MIDI file into Cakewalk or the Windows Media Player, do you get any sound out of your speakers?

Actually, you don't need to play the MIDI file in Winamp or WMP to record it in CEP. You can just open it in CEP's multitrack, play it, then record it in a different track.

The trouble with this method, and variations of it, is that any method of MIDI-to-wav that relies on *recording* the output in CEP (or anything else) involves going through my sound card, which then adds a layer of noise to the file, which ain't no good.

Or am I missing something in what you're saying?

Chris

Just trying to think of a way for you test to whether you could play live through the B4 while recording with CEP / Audition.  If you can play out of Cakewalk, etc. and into CEP / Audition, then you could probably do the same with the B4.

Question to be answered:  can one go from MIDI keyboard into B4 softsynth and out into CEP / Audition without going through the soundcard?  

I'm intrigued by the question and have spent a good part of the day reading.  From what I've read, I can confirm SteveG's comments that some softsynths can render MIDI to wav without going through the soundcard.  Might need to use Virtual Audio Cables to connect the softsynth output to the CEP input.  But doable.  And the quality of the softsynth's  output vs. the soundcard's output would need to be tested.  

The question of whether the B4 can do this remains.  I'm going to download a demo and see what I can discover.  I'll post back with the results of my experiment.

Isn't this what 'Hubi's Loop through' does? It's free...

Well, I've been nosing around and it seems there are plenty of free (or pretty cheap) utilities out there that convert midi to wav and don't go through the sound card - I just tried a demo of WavMaker that appeared to do it. There's so much I still don't understand about MIDI though, I may be misunderstanding the ease of this conversion.

For my purposes, it's not really necessary to be able to convert it in real-time, while I'm recording. I just need to know that once I record the midi track I can then turn it into a wav so I can work with it normally.

I'm getting the cables and adapters, etc. I need this week, so hopefully you'll all be hearing a tune with an organ in the Showcase forum soon!

There's still the problem of whether to move the keyboard into the room where the computer is, or move the computer...?

They're both pretty dang non-portable...

Chris

Hubi's is for making multiple midi connections and I don't think it will help Groucho do what he has in mind.  There's "VAC" (Virtual Audio Cable) which is not free and which I've never managed to get working.  (But that could be me....).  I'd expect the B4 to be able to output to wave within itself, not going through the soundcard, in which case you can then insert the resulting file into the AA MT, line it up with the tracks you were playing back while you recorded it, and there you are.

I'll put in my two cents.

MIDI - a simple code language for different music controllers/modules to communicate with each other. For instance, a simple keyboard sends code (note, velocity, cutoff) to where ever you want. Plug it into your respective midi in (or gameport) jack via the appropriate wire.

Now, you want to use a VSTi or Soundfont host... You can also find programs that use .wav and other simple formats. VSTi's are modules that you can use for many different types of things. For instance the organ, which has its own variables, to change the tone or vibrato, and then the note itself. Your midi controller (keyboard) might have knobs which you can assign to those variables. That simple. Soundfonts are merely groups of samples that make up an instrument. That said, soundfonts don't have the softsynth capabilities of the VSTi.

If youre looking for immediate implementation, go look at my freeware link topic, and CHOOSE -> http://audiomastersforum.net/amforum/viewtopic.php?t=1144

i personally suggest beginners to check out Modplug. It's not as advanced or modular as the others on the list, such as buzz, but it is a very good free, simple, sample sequencing "tracker" program. What you can do is simply set it up to recognize the midi in and your card you want to sound out, and drag in a wav file to an instrument window, enable midi, and youre off to play some sounds!

Once you learn the certain program, or --just ask me on PM or AIM screenname (click on my aim icon below)... You will easily be able to get your instrument going.

On the subject of ASIO, the current problem is you cannot run an asio driver signal into cooledit pro. asio means low latency when dealing with pressing a key, etc. What that means is, if you use asio, you will get pretty much a non noticeable delay when you press or change something. If you use other methods such as WDM or DirectX, and try to record it, you will want to change the buffers to get as low latency as you can without it clicking or popping.

WITH THAT SAID.... *sigh* (I have been working the midnight shift and it is now 8am and i chugged a lot of coffee and felt dizzy and nauseous all night) ... Heres my method as of late:

1. Load up modplug. Compose my music using my midi keyboard with .xi instrument files, .wav sample files, and vst effects, playing my guitar, singing, writing lyrics all the while.

2. Load postmod - this program is awesome, $15, www.magicfish.net which splits .it files (the sequenced song files exported from modplug) into various .wav files.

3. Take all the .wav files from the splitted .it file and launch adobe audition. Here I can tweek every sample just as if i have recorded each one. Then record my guitars, vocals, and whatever else I need to add over the composition.

4. Mix down, effects, etc.

Whew.

RonC

Chris has said that his sound card does not have a MIDI In port.  The couple of scenarios I presented above were geared specifically to testing whether or not Chris could play a MIDI file - given that his sound card does not have a MIDI In port.  Supposedly, WinXP can play MIDI through a sound card that does not support MIDI.  That is what I was trying to get Chris to test.  I am slowly getting all of my audio and MIDI software loaded onto the WinXP machine I have recently purchase - so I will be able to test this myself in short order.  The only problem is knowing how much I can rely on my results.  My sound card supports MIDI.  Chris' sound card supposedly does not.  I would trust Chris' results, then, in this testing before I would trust mine. (Results = can WinXP truely play a MIDI file when no MIDI-capable sound card is installed?).  In his post above, Ozpeter summarized what I expect Chris will discover with his system.

Re Virtual Audio Cable (VAC) -
http://spider.nrcde.ru/music/software/eng/vac.html

The demo version gives you one cable for free that you can play with.  The VAC passes digital data from one program to another.  Nothing passes through the sound card.  There is a small learning curve - but that is easily negotiated.  (I'm sure Ozpeter could make it work if he really needed to.)  The one cable is enough to check out the issues we have been discussing here.  However, I cannot yet say for certain that it works with WinXP.  I will be checking that out shortly and will report back.

Slightly OT:  In CEP/A's multitrack view, you can assign a different VAC-In to each track.  Which means you can have a separate source for input to each track in CEP/A's multitrack view.  In a different thread, Ozpeter and I discuss building a SynthEdit (softsynth) module that will play more than one soundfont at a time - so one could play a multi-track MIDI file using SynthEdit.  Unfortunately, SynthEdit only gives you one Audio out (at least in the free version that I downloaded) - so all soundfonts are mixed together with no control from the user when they hit the speakers.  I'm checking to see whether I can connect a different Virtual Audio Cable Out to each soundfont, and bypass SynthEdit's audio out altogether.  If I can do this, then each soundfont could be ported to its own distinct track in CEP/A.

Slightly OT:  I've launched CEP and Audition together (they are both open on my screen).  I've loaded a 4 track project in CEP; connected 4 Virtual Audio Cable Outs from each track in multitrack view; connected the 4 Virtual Audio Cable Ins to each of four tracks in Audition; launched CEP's mixer window; clicked "Play" in CEP and mixed the sound from the four tracks to my satisfaction with CEP's mixer window; then clicked on "Record" in Audition and "Play" in CEP.  In Audition, I end up with the same 4 tracks that I have in CEP - except that the sound among the tracks is now balanced more closely to what I desire.  Volume envelopes can still be employed where required to further fine-tune the mix.  But this is a lot quicker than doing everything with volume envelopes.  All of this stays in the digital realm, as the Virtual Audio Cables bypass the soundcard.

If you cannot route out of CEP and into Audition, then connect  Tracks 1-4 to individual Virutal Audio Cable outs; connect the 4 Virtual Audio Cable ins to Tracks 5 - 8 of the same software program (CEP or Audition).  Launch the CEP/A mixer and adjust to taste.  Then arm Tracks 5 - 8 to record, press "Play", and get the same result as you do in the paragraph above.

Depending on what you need to do, the Virtual Audio Cables can be a good investment.

I just verified that you are correct.  However, on my non-WinXP computers, I do not have the option to select GM.DLS as my sound set when using CEP/A to play the MIDI file.  I can only play through the default soundcard sound set - which sounds pretty bad.  By playing out with Winamp and recording with CEP/A, I at least have the option of selecting the GM.DLS sound set to play through.  I haven't tested this yet on the WinXP computer.  But since GM.DLS seems to be the default sound set for WinXP, I presume that a MIDI file played with CEP/A would play through GM.DLS automatically.

Yikes, I'm getting seriously confused now...:)

So, okay. I *can* play MIDI files. No problem. I can record them through the sound card (not so hot). I can record them without going through the sound card via certain software (better).

But I'm still trying to understand all this "soundset" stuff. Here's a scenario:

Say, I record a guitar part normally. I then place the guitar track in Cakewalk (so I have something to play to) and record a MIDI track using the B4 software.

Then, I render the B4 track to wav via some *other* software (since I still haven't verified that Cakewalk can do this without going through the sound card) and fly both the tracks back to CEP for editing.

NOW... is the B4 file going to retain its B4 "soundset" now that it's been rendered to wav? When I did the test rendering last night with WavMaker, the rendered file had slighty different sound than the original MIDI file (same "notes", different soundset?)

Does this question make sense?

I'm starting to think MIDI stands for Migraine-Inducing Damn Inconvenience...:)

Chris

Yes, I was in too much of a hurry this morning, and mis-read the last part of the request....

Just a note to say that it works in WinXP. I'll post details and links tomorrow.

Cakewalk_____________Native Instrument's B4______________CEP
_____Hubi's Loopback -->_____________Virtual Audio Cable -->

This setup completely bypasses the soundcard. And my goodness, what nice organ tones that B4 produces!!!

Chris - don't worry. This is going to be easier than you think. However, the demo inserts tones throughout - even in the setup listed above. So you cannot use the demo to create usable music. And the price on the B4 seems to be close to $300? Are you aware of this?

Yes.  The "wav" sound that is produced by the B4 soundset is piped directly to CEP/A through the Virtual Audio Cable.  CEP/A then records that direct output from the B4.

Good news, bonnder! Thanks for checking. I guess there's nothing left to do but haul the keyboard upstairs...:)

And yeah, the B4 is indeed an amazing-sounding device. I got it as a gift, and I'd actually never even checked the price. $300? Yikes.

Chris

For those with smaller resources, try Rumpelrausch Taips ZR-3 which Google would find, or see http://www.dancetech.com/aa_dt_new/hardware/ITEM.CFM?threadid=2528&lang=0 for more.

Bonnder saw a post I made on a similar topic over in "another place" and suggested I stop by this thread.  Reading through it, it appears you guys are already ahead of anything I could offer on Groucho's specific query, but for future reference there is one suggestion I can make to anybody just starting out.

If you can step up from Cakewalk 9 to Sonar 2 or above, you will find that this comes with Edirol VSC as a standard feature.  This gives a couple of advantages.  First, I find the VSC range of instruments much more pleasing than those that come as standard with Windoze, Creative Lies, etc., but second (and more important in this context) it tranfers the "grunt work" away from the soundcard and onto the main processor.

It's possible (indeed easy) to insert the VSC DXi synth even if the original files weren't done that way, then just go along and switch the output device for each channel to the VSC.  One other hint...if you select "Patch=None" at this point you access the full range of VSC instruments on a separate control panel...selecting any other patch number is more limiting.

This allows Sonar to have a nifty "Export Audio" command which automatically converts your midi track(s) to .wav.  This can either be a full mix of everything you've done, or (by manipulating track selection and mutes) you can take things across track by track.

I frequently mix for a composer who lays down his tracks in Sonar and the above is my normal mode of working.  Depending on the mix and the effects I want, I would typically take stuff across track by track and handle them as waves in AA, but in a rush it works adequatedly to allow Sonar to do the mix.

Prior to Sonar, when I was on Cakewalk 9, my method was more similar to some of the ones discussed above...I'd come out of CW0 via the Game/Midi port via the appropriate adaptor cable, into a Yamaha "sound module" (the model of which I have obliterated from my memory) and back into CEP via line out/line in.  The Yamaha had some decent sounds, but was also pretty noisy...I LOVE the nonexistant noise floor the VSC/Export Audio command gives me.

I realise this isn't totally germain to Groucho's initial query, but hope it might be useful for somebody!

Bob

It's quite alright to mention the Adobe u2u forum by name - we're not exactly sworn enemies!


On this particular (often confusing) subject, I don't think that it ever hurts to have a wealth of different approaches outlined - because there are so many possibilities, many of which are quite plausible, and alternative, ways of working.

Maybe it's time for me to start experimenting a bit more with midi too (in Sonar most of all then). I really feel like it after reading this thread, hehe.

Heh - yeah, I'd always associated MIDI with dorky "beep beep" sound files and silly, mechanical-sounding instruments... then I heard the B4 and a couple of other electric piano and organ plugs, and I realized I didn't know jack about MIDI.:)

Chris

I'll likely regret this when you "golden ears" get involved, but as I've just spent the better part of today working on a mix done exactly as I described above, I thought I'd post a snippet to demonstrate what Sonar/VSC/AA mixing can sound like....

It's at http://audiomastersforum.net/amforum/viewtopic.php?p=14376#14376

I still have some things to finish, particularly on the vocals, but it'll give you an idea of "midi the VSC way".

Bob

thats cool and all, but what I said is that all this can be done free. No need to buy all that software.

RonC

Yes indeed, Ron.  I wouldn't advocate anybody running out to buy Sonar just to render a few midi files.  In my case, I HAVE the software (and use it lots to do with a contract I have) so I find it a convenient method, but as Steve says, there are lots of different options out there.

Bob

There are questions for Bob at the end.  I'm trying to make a point here that might save folks some money.  So please bear with me as I build my case.  And just so folks don't have to go searching on the first page of this thread:



The GM.DLS soundset was apparently first installed in Win95, licensed from Roland, so that vendors could build hooks into their products that would play sound through that soundset.  Few, if any, have.  Over the past week, I have downloaded probably 15 different MIDI sequencers and/or players - and the only one I found that could hook into that soundset in Win98 is Winamp.  As mentioned above, I can't even hook into GM.DLS by going through Control Panel > Multimedia > MIDI tab in Win98.  However, with WinXP, the GM.DLS soundset is the default - under the name of "Microsoft GS Wavetable SW Synth".

I have Cakewalk Pro 9 installed on my Win98 SE machine.  When I go to Tools > MIDI Devices in Cakewalk, I see "MIDI Mapper"; "SB16 MIDI Out"; and "Creative Music Synth".  In Winamp, I see these three - plus "DirectMusic/Microsoft Synthesizer"  When I select the DirectMusic choice as my output, it is obvious that I have hooked into the GM.DLS soundset.  Just to double-check, I extracted sound files from the set using AWave and turned them into SF2 soundfonts and played them with a softsynth.  They are the same sounds that Winamp plays when I have selected the DirectMusic output.

I then installed Roland's Virtual Sound Canvas eighty eight on the Win98 machine (I get the sunglasses guy if I type 8 twice).  My choice at Tools > MIDI Devices in Cakewalk became "MIDI Mapper"; "SB16 MIDI Out"; and "Creative Music Synth" - plus "Roland VSC" (for the VSC eighty eight).  My choices in Winamp became "MIDI Mapper"; "SB16 MIDI Out"; "Creative Music Synth"; "DirectMusic/Microsoft Synthesizer"- plus "Roland VSC" (for the VSC eighty eight).  I know that the DirectMusic output and the Roland VSC ouput are not hooking into the same soundset (GM.DLS) because there is a distinct difference in sounds between the two - due probably to differences in the way the parameters are tweaked in each soundset.

I'm being so detailed for the following reason.  On my WinXP machine I have not installed Roland's Virtual Sound Canvas 88.  When I go to Tools > MIDI Devices in Cakewalk, I see only "MIDI Mapper" and "Microsoft GS Wavetable SW Synth" as choices.  When I play a MIDI file in Cakewalk using the "Microsoft GS Wavetable SW Synth" output, it sounds the same as when I play the MIDI file in Winamp using the  "DirectMusic/Microsoft Synthesizer" output.  And this sounds the same as when I play the MIDI file with Winamp, using the same output, on my Win98 machine.  I am convinced that they are all hooking into the GM.DLS file.

Then I installed Roland's Virtual Sound Canvas eighty eight onto the WinXP machine.  As expected, I now had "Roland VSC" as a choice of output at Tools > MIDI Devices in Cakewalk.  Then I uninstalled VSC eighty eight, and that choice of output disappeared from Tools > MIDI Devices in Cakewalk.

Then I installed Sonar 3 demo version.  At "Options > MIDI Devices" in Sonar 3, my choices of output were only two:  MIDI Mapper and "Microsoft GS Wavetable SW Synth" - the same as my choices in Cakewalk.  It appears that my demo version of Sonar 3 does not give me a "good" soundset to use.  It seems to simply give me access to a sound set that has been part of Windows since Win95 that hardly anybody knew was there, and a soundset that Winamp already accesses.

So I have several questions for Bob:  What OS are you using?  I'm guessing WinXP. And in Sonar, when you go to Options > MIDI Devices, what do you see?  When you buy Sonar 3 and register it, do you actually get access to a sound set with a name other than "Microsoft GS Wavetable SW Synth" and the name of whatever your Audio Card sound set might be?

Also - note this:  For those thinking of using Sonar 3, it won't install if your DirectX version is less than 9.0.

Hi Bonnder...I'll try to answer your specific questions...

First off, I'm still on Windows 98SE.  Also, my version of Sonar is 2.0 so I'm not sure what differences have crept into version 3.

In Sonar 2, the disk included Edirol VSC as a DXi plugin for Sonar.  What I can't tell you is whether or not this loaded as part of the standard setup or if I had to go back to the disc and install it as a custom option.  I know some things are in the latter category..the virtual piano for example.

In my case, the VSC does NOT show up on the midi devices list.  I'd assumed this was because the list would only show hardware, so now your experiences have ME thinking!

Anyway for me to access VSC in Sonar 2, at the beginning of any project is simply click on Insert/DXi Synth/Edirol VSC.  This will set up a couple of new "tracks" in the project (one audio, one midi) which you can just ignore.  It also opens a new menu window where you can select VSC instruments, effects, etc etc.

Then, on any midi track I open in the normal way, on the "Output" control FOR THAT TRACK I use the pull down menu to select Edirol VSC.  As noted earlier, I also select Patch=None to transfer control to the VSC menu.  You have to set up channel numbers the normal way, though if you're like me you likely have a template that does this anyhow.

I hope this answers your questions...now you have me wondering why the VSC doesn't show up in my Options/Devices list!

Bob

One possible reason:  The Sonar folks probably only paid license fees to use the soundset in Sonar, and so constructed an install routine that guaranteed that only Sonar could see the soundset.  If the Sonar folks constructed the install of the Edirol VSC so that it would show up in Options > Devices, then it would also show up in Cakewalk under Tools > Devices, it would show up in Winamp as a selectable output device, at Control Panel > Multimedia > MIDI tab, and at a comparable location in any other program that is built to recognize such things. The Sonar folks probably only wanted to pay for license fees that would enable users of Sonar to use the Edirol soundset in Sonar.  License fees to pay for the ability to use the soundset in all the other programs mentioned would probably have been significantly higher.

I will no doubt be lobbing questions your way over the next several months to see if your method of employing the VSC soundset in Sonar 2 works the same way in Sonar 3.  If you decide to download the demo version of Sonar 3, remember that your version of DirectX needs to be 9.0 or higher.  My recent download of DirectX version 9.0b was about 8 MB if memory serves.

Here are some more alternatives to Native Instrument's B4 plugin:

http://www.gbmuk.fsnet.co.uk/utilities.html

Thanks a million Bonnder - looks like my tax return won't get done this weekend after all.....  :wink:

Well, here's an update on my MIDI situation - and a desperate cry for help...

After one LONG-ass evening, I'm no closer to success than when I started. I bought the MIDI-to-Gameport pack (thanks again for the link, Karl!). I connected one end to the Gameport/Joystick port in the soundcard, connected the "MIDI out" plug to the "MIDI IN" of my keyboard and the "MIDI in" to the "MIDI out" in my keyboard (I read in the Cakewalk help files that you should have it connected in this rather backwards-seeming manner).

After a solid hour of messing with Cakewalk I couldn't even figure out how to locate th B4 (my vst instrument of choice). So I gave up and loaded up Samplitude.

Now, in Samplitude I can locate the B4, insert it, etc. But no matter what I do I can't hear the keyboard through my speakers. Now, after several hours of fiddling and never once even being able to get the computer to register a sound from the keyboard, I might have just chalked it up to my sound card being hopeless or something and given up.

Alas though, I did have ONE brief moment of success, which I have been unable to repeat. At some point I found I was able to record MIDI data just fine. I couldn't HEAR it while I was playing, mind you, but I could play it, then play it back, export it as a wav file, and wala! I had me a wav file of me playing a Hammond B3 organ!

Except that it only worked once or twice, and I cannot reproduce the configuration that allowed me to get even that far.

So, can anybody give me any kind of nudge in the right direction?

Chris

Let's rephrase what you said.

- The MIDI Out on your keyboard should be connected to the MIDI In of your soundcard - because you want to send MIDI code that your keyboard generates into your souncard's MIDI pathway so that it can get transported into your MIDI program of choice on your computer.

- The MIDI In on your keyboard should be connected to the MIDI Out of your soundcard - because you want your keyboard's internal sound module to respond to any MIDI code that may be sent from your MIDI program of choice on your computer out through your soundcard's MIDI pathway.  However, since your objective is to play the B4 (send MIDI code from keyboard to computer), I would suggest leaving this pathway unconnected for the time being.  It will reduce the variables you have to deal with.

Can you launch the stand-alone version of the B4?  If so, that would also reduce the variables you have to deal with.  The demo version seems to only be the stand-alone version.  I cannot find a VSTi file to open in CEP with my VST wrapper.  So the following comments apply to the stand alone version.  I don't know if they translate directly to the VSTi version.

Click on System > MIDI Settings.  At the top left you should see a box that says "Available Inports".  Inside that box should be a name that corresponds to your soundcard or MIDI to Gameport pack.  If it does not appear there, you perhaps need to install a driver or something so that your computer recognizes your soundcard as a MIDI device.  If it does appear there, click on it to highlight it, then click on "Insert".  You should see the highlighted name drop down into the "Installed InPorts" box.  If this is done properly, your B4 should be able to accept data from your external MIDI keyboard.

Next, notice at System > MIDI Settings that the B4 is set to accept incoming MIDI data on Channels 1, 2, and 3 (under the "Installed Inports" box).  That means you need to be transmitting from your external MIDI keyboard on at least Channels 1, 2, and 3.  The ways of doing this vary, depending upon the keyboard manufacturer, so I can't give you any specific advice here.

Click on System > Audio Settings.  Click on the drop-down arrow for "Out Port".  In order to hear sound, you should select your soundcard in this box.  When you want to record your output with CEP/A, you would select a Virtual Audio Cable port here instead.  At System > Audio Port you should select "Soundcard".

Report back about whether you have made these selections.  You might also state whether you have downloaded and installed any of Hubi's Loopback Device, MIDI Yoke, or Virtual Audio Cables.  (I'm still pulling together the instructions for using these and will post them shortly.)  You say you ended up with a wav file of you playing the B4 at some point.  What did you use to record with - Cakewalk?  Or CEP/A?

You'll get there.  Be of good cheer.

The MIDI-to-Game Port adapter has two ends: one end has a "midi in" and "midi out", the other end plugs into the game port jack of the sound card. I have the game port jack going into the game port, the "midi in" going into the keyboard's midi out jack, and the "midi out" going into the keyboard's midi in jack. Again, this is following the Cakewalk help file, but it is the only configuration that has given me any success at all.



Yes.



This I can do, except I don't get any sound coming through.




Hmm. I'm wondering if maybe my keyboard is the problem. It has a MIDI in and a MIDI out, but that's all it has in the way of MIDI controls. I have no idea how to specify channels, or anything like that. It's a digital piano with a few different settings, but no MIDI controls at all.



I can get sound by using my mouse and pressing the keys in the B4's little keyboard display. When I play the keys of my keyboard, I see the B4's keys being pressed down, but no sound comes out.



I'll definitely be glad to read those instructions!:) I have Virtual Audio Cable and Hubi's Loopback, but I'm just shooting in the dark as far as how to set them up.



No, I was never able to get anywhere with Cakewalk. With Samplitude I was occasionally able to record, but I was never able to hear it while I was playing. Then, it would just stop even recording for no reason at all. I tried saving the session that worked and using the exact same settings, but it would work for awhile and then just stop.

Then I tried N-tracks, which supports vst instruments. I was able to play, record, *and* hear the sounds I was recording in N-tracks, but there were some problems (aside from the fact that it crashed every few minutes). The biggest one was a lag of about a second between me hitting the keys and the sound coming out. Nothing I did affected that lag, and that makes it pretty near impossible to play any music with.

With Fruityloops I can play, I can hear the sounds, and there's no lag problems. But fruityloops can't export to a wav file - only to midi.

So there we have it so far...



You know it, man...:)

Thanks much for your help.
Chris

Sounds as though you have the 'echo' disabled.  In Cakewalk, you go to Options|Project, click the MIDI input tab and check the 'Echo Mode Auto' box.  If you're using SONAR, I guess it's the same - if not do a search for 'midi echo' in the help file to find out where it's located.

BTW, there is no need to connect the soundcard midi out to the keyboard midi in, unless you wish to use the keyboards' own voices.

The fun continues...:)

Every software I try, something different happens.

Currently, I'm playing with ACID 4. Now with ACID, I can play, I can hear, I can record, I can render to wav... everything is dandy. Except the MIDI that I record never stays in sync with what I'm recording to.

I've got a little drum loop in there to play to, and when I record, I'm in time with drums. But when I play back, the recorded MIDI is way out of sync with the drums.

But I'm definitely making progress here. I can now download just about any program and within a few minutes, get the B4 sound coming through the keyboard and out the speakers.

Except Cakewalk, that is. I don't know how people use that program...)

(probably takes a little more practice than one night...:)

Chris

Success!!

Well, I finally got it, using ACID (nice little program, that).

And after only about 24 hours straight...:)

Here's a little test clip for anyone who's interested. Just a very quickly thrown-together little snippet, but it gives you an idea of the b4's capabilities.

www.venusburning.com/chris/Longer_B4_Test.mp3

Oh, bonnder - I found that GM.DLS soundset you were talking about before. Fun stuff! Definitely some usable sounds amongst the cheese in there.:)

Okay, *now* I'm gettin' syched about this MIDI thing...

I'll shut up now.
Chris

OK - so now go and download one or all of the MIDI files I linked to in the middle of Page 2 above - if you haven't done so already.  Play them and see what you think.

If so, it would appear that you have established the proper connections to get MIDI code into the B4 program from your external keyboard.  What is not clear is what you are doing when you get all of the results reported in the posts above.  It sounds to me like you are using the B4 VST file from within the different programs.

If you truely can launch the stand-alone version, then let's try something.  Launch only the B4 stand-alone, and play some of the demo songs.  You should see the keys moving on the B4 keyboard, and you should hear the sound coming out your speakers.  Now, install Virtual Audio Cables (VAC) if it is not installed.  For the moment, we don't need to concern ourselves with Hubi or MIDI Yoke.  You want VAC Version 3.06 or later.  If you don't have it, get it here:

http://spider.nrcde.ru/music/software/eng/vac.html

01. Unzip the download file.  Then click on Start > Run > Browse and navigate to the unzipped VAC folder.  Click on "Setup.exe" and run it.  The default installation location is "C:\Program Files\Virtual Audio Cable".  Restart your PC.  Verify that the installation worked by finding the Virtual Audio Cable entry at Start > Programs.

02. Using Windows Explorer, navigate to wherever VAC is installed and right-click on the "Audio Repeater.exe" file.  Left-click on "Send To" then "Desktop (create shortcut)".

03.  Launch CEP/A.  Click on File > New > OK.  Click on Options > Device Properties > Wave In tab.  Click on the drop-down arrow and click on "Virtual Cable 1 In". Click on "OK".   If "Virtual Cable 1 In" does not show there, go to Start > Programs > Virtual Audio Cable, uninstall the program, restart your computer, and do Point 1 above again.  Reduce CEP/A to the taskbar.

04.  Launch the stand-alone version of NI B4.  If demo songs play automatically, click on "Demo Song" and de-select "Play" (or whatever menu choice will stop the demo song).  Click on System > Audio Port > Soundcard;  Click on System > Audio Settings > Out Port drop-down arrow > Virtual Cable 1 Out.  You might have two entries there - one labled MME Virtual Cable 1 Out and another labled DirectMusic Virtual Cable 1 Out.  If you have two entries, I can't tell you which to select.  Experiment and see which works best.  At the moment, your B4 MIDI settings are irrelevant.  Reduce B4 to the taskbar.
----------

05.  A brief B4 explanation.  If you already know this, skip to Point 6. Click on "System" and make certain that "Stop Audio" is displayed.  This means that audio playback is enabled.  If you click "Stop Audio" it will toggle to "Play Audio" - which will disable audio playback. Click on Demo Song > Play - or whatever menu choice will enable you to play a demo song.  If you have no menu choice that enables you to play a demo song, look for a choice that will enable you to load a MIDI file.  Then load one.

On my B4 demo version, I can click on Demo Song > Open MIDI File, and load a MIDI file - which will then proceed to play through the B4 (organ tones, obviously).  On the non-demo version, I assume there is also a menu choice that will allow you to load a MIDI file into the B4.  You will have to figure that menu choice out for yourself, since I only have the demo version.  Note that at System > MIDI Settings > MIDI Channel Inputs, you can change the B4 MIDI In's to match whatever Channels might be playing organ-type MIDI code in your MIDI file that you load into the B4.

06.  A brief VAC explanation.  If you already know this, skip to Point 7.  Virtual Cable 1 Out and Virtual Cable 1 In simply pass digital audio data Out from one program and In to another.  You can connect as many programs to Virtual Cable 1 Out as you wish, and they will all feed digital audio information into the Virtual Cable 1 Out pipeline.  All of that data will be present at the Virtual Cable 1 In port on whichever program you chose to open it in.  Theoretically, you could open Virtual Cable 1 In in multiple programs at the same time.  However, let's limit ourselves to only one program for now - CEP/A.

The Virtual Cable 1 Out and In ports are only passing digital audio data to each other.  The sound card is not involved.  In order to hear what you are passing through the Virtual Cables, you need to launch the Audio Repeater application.  Do so now.
----------

07.  Find the Audio Repeater Icon on your desktop and launch Audio Repeater.  Click on the "Wave In" drop-down arrow and click on "Virtual Cable 1 In".  Click on the "Wave Out" drop-down arrow and click on the name for your soundcard/softsynth.  Then click on "Start". Reduce the Audio Repeater to the taskbar.

08. Restore CEP/A from the taskbar and click on "Record".
(See my note below Point 12 below.  Regardless of when you start the Audio Repeater, you should always press "Record" before you press "Play".  That has been my experience.)

09. Restore B4 from the taskbar. Click on "System" and make certain that "Stop Audio" is displayed.  Click on Demo Song > Play, or whatever menu choice you must click on to start a MIDI file playing in the B4.

10.  You should hear sound.  If not, say so.  You should be recording that sound with CEP/A (sound that is going straight from the B4 to CEP/A, bypassing the soundcard).  If CEP/A does not record your B4 output, say so.

11.  Click whatever menu choices you must to stop the B4 from playing.  Reduce it to the taskbar.  Click "Stop" on CEP/A.  Restore the Audio Repeater from the taskbar and click on "Stop".  Reduce the Audio Repeater back to the taskbar.  What do you see in CEP/A.  Any waves?  Or a flat line?

12.  If you manage to record your B4 output with CEP/A when playing a demo song or MIDI file, then you should be able to do the same by playing your external keyboard.  Try it and see.  In the B4, at System > MIDI Settings, make certain that your sound card is displayed in the "Installed Ports" box.

Final note for now:  Earlier versions of VAC were a bit tempermental for me.  For reasons that I never figured out, I would sometimes have to start the Audio Repeater (Point 7 above) after I had clicked record in CEP/A, rather than before.  And sometimes I would have to start the Audio Repeater after I had clicked play in my output program (Winamp or Cakewalk; yup, VAC ports show up in all kinds of programs, including Winamp).  Play around if necessary to figure out what works for you.

I think I have included every step you need here.  I will come back in a while and proofread this again.  If I edit anything, I will put a note at the bottom of my post here so that you will know.

Yep. I'm still not able to get any sound out of the B4 when using it standalone. Not even on the demo files. Well, some sound comes out, but it's just clicks and pops - doesn't resemble the B4s actual sounds.

But using it within ACID, everything works fine.

Hey, I'm just happy to have it working...:)
Chris

You are on WinXP, right? When you go to Control Panel > Sounds and Audio Devices > Audio tab, and click on the Audio down-arrow, do you have more than one choice there? Would choosing something different make any difference in whether the B4 stand-alone version could output sound? The stand-along demo plays out fine through my WinXP system.

Also, you didn't say whether you had successfully installed Virtual Audio Cables (VAC).  If you did, you might check System > Audio Settings > Out Port box to make certain that you don't have "Virtual Cable 1 Out" selected.  That would keep the sound from reaching your speakers, but that wouldn't explain the clicks and pops.

At any rate, glad you are up and running. Whatever gets you where you need to go.

Lengthen that D4 clip you posted. It quits waaay too soon!!

Yep.



Nope - just one choice there: the sound card.

I no longer have VAC installed, so I suspect the problem lies in my sound card. When running the standalone, you have the two Audio Port choices - ASIO or Soundcard, and I've found several posts on the web by users who say they had all sorts of trouble with the B4 until they installed a card that used ASIO drivers. I think I'm lucky to have gotten this thing working with my crappy little sound card.



Yes indeed. And thanks for posting the above instructions. At some point in the future I'm going to be updating my sound card, and then I'll give your method a go - it'd be nice to not have to include ACID in the loop. And anyway, it's good to have all the instructions posted for general info purposes.



Heh... keep your eye on the Showcase forum... I have a feeling I'm gonna have a slew of B4-oriented clips coming soon...:)

thanks again for the help everybody.

Chris

Well, since you asked, Bonnder...

Here's a longer snippet of utterly self-indulgent noodling - solo this time; no drums...

This is fun.:D

Chris

www.venusburning.com/chris/Longer_B4_Test.mp3

Impressive.  Both the B4 and the fingers.

That panning bugs me.  Channel mixer with 66/33 ratios on the channel (L=66L+33R, R=33L+66R) keeps the effect, but tones it down a lot.

Thanks Karl.

Yeah, the panning on the rotary thingie is pretty wacky. It can be adjusted - as can nearly every aspect of the sound on the b4. I haven't even started fooling around with much in the way of tweaking. I've just been having too much fun playing!

Chris

Wow! What a thread!

I just worked my way through the whole thing to see if there was anything I could add that hadn't been fully covered. The one thing that didn't seem very well covered and which I use a lot is software rendering of midi to wav.

I create my tracks, often using Jammer Pro and produce a midi file with all the instruments seperate. I open the file in Cakewalk's Plasma Express (a lite version). In this I can attach Soundfonts (.sf2) files which allow me to assign different sounds to each track, and to rehearse them until I am sure what I want. I save a Plasma file for reference but I don't vhange the original midi file.

Then I start AudioCompositor - this is a superbe rendering tool, but the homepage has apparently disappeared and it looks like no future versions are being produced.

With AC I can select the input track, the input soundfont I wish used, and an ouput file as well as the bit depth, etc - Loads of parameters!

When I hit run it renders the midi track to wav - it can take some time if you select high quality output, but the results are well worth it.

I don't know if there are any other applications that provide the same facilities as AC, but this is the best way I have found of rendering midi. I tried playing from Cakewalk into CEP but it is not very satisfactory.

There are thousands of soundfonts out there many free, of very high quality and using Creative Labs Vienna you can make your own out of samples ofyou own playing etc.

Hope that helps!

As stated earlier in this thread, I have had no reason to know anything about PC MIDI and have been blissfully ignorant - until Ozpeter recently started extolling the virtues of SynthEdit. That aroused my interest, and I have learned quite a bit about PC MIDI since this thread started. I will share the results of that research in the near future. Until then, check out SynthFont at this link (it also will render MIDI to Wav using sound fonts):

http://www.synthfont.com/

It is still free (and is in development) and has the potential to be an amazing piece of software. However, the program will only play one MIDI file at a time. Because the playlist feature is not yet implemented, you must use an external MIDI player if you want to use a playlist (I use Winamp) and feed the MIDI data to SynthFont through a virtual MIDI cable (Hubi or MIDI Yoke). When you do this, you lose the ability to use the VST effects (reverb, etc.) with SynthFont. A minor technicality for now. Hopefully the playlist will become functional soon.

SynthFont will automatically create as many channels as you have channels in your MIDI file. You can assign a sound font to each channel. If the soundfont on any given channel has multiple presets, you can then specify which preset should be used. There is a built-in mixer for each channel that will allow you to adjust channel volume (to balance volume against the volume of other channels), transpose MIDI, pan, and change the MIDI channel number. You can assign a VST effect to each channel. And more. The program interface does not make it obvious that you can do all of these things. If you need any help figuring this stuff out, PM me.

I'm assembling a VST SF Player in SynthEdit that will accept playlist input from Winamp and still allow you to apply VST effects such as reverb. For now, my VST Player will only play up to six sound fonts simultaneously. That is my self-imposed limit - not a limit of SynthEdit. I haven't found the need to play more than six sound fonts at once yet.  My VST SF Player will also render MIDI to Wav.

More coming.

Get Audio Compositor here:

http://www.maz-sound.de/archives/ac44.exe
 __or
http://www.maz-sound.com/awe_text_only.html  (scroll about halfway down page)

This is a demo version - with only limited function.  With no place to pay for the program, it will likely stay demo with limited functions - so it's usefulness is also limited.  But you can at least see what the program looks like if you've never seen it.

Also - I've downloaded Vienna - but it won't install.  I get a message saying that the install routine cannot find a soundfont-compatible sound card, and then the install routine just stops.  I guess Vienna was meant to push the Soundblaster Live and such sound cards - rather than being provided to support sound fonts in general.

I have decided that there is so much good info in this thread that a) it should be somewhat more appropriately named, and b) that it should be made sticky.

At present, this is the closest we've got to a FAQ system, so it will have to do. Any more useful contributions appreciated!

I believe there are some other soundfont editors out there that don't rely on a soundfont card, but I forget the names (try Google). In fact AudioCompositor has functionality for soundfont editing, but I haven't tried it so I don't know if it is any good.

As for AC - can some legal wiz tell me if this is allowed?: If the producers of AC have closed down and the product is no longer commercially available, can I share my copy with others for free? If it is allowed I am happy to do so, but I don't want to break any laws.

I have the lates full version and am very happy with it.

Bonnder, I've only glanced at the Synthfont site for about 30" but my first thought, translated into a quick and successful experiment, was that you can do the basically same thing with the mid file player module in Synthedit connected to the RGCAudio 'sfz' soundfont player, then on through any VST's you care to add, and out via an 'audio out' module.  But I'm really supposed to be doing anything except posting here, so I'll save Synthfont for a longer look another day.  Thanks for yet another good tip!

MarkT - I too have wondered what the ramifications would be of passing around a workable version of AudioCompositor.  Don't know that anybody has the answer to that one.  If we did something like that, I would almost be more comfortable establishing an escrow account and paying for the product - in case ACs creator appears at some point and wants his fair share.

Peter - I have the RGCAudio 'sfz' soundfont player, and I have tried to use it with SynthEdit.  The 'sfz' SF player will only load one soundfont at a time.  So, to play a MIDI file with a piano SF and an organ SF, I would need to launch two instances of the 'sfz' SF player.  With SynthFont, I just load the piano SF on my piano track and the organ SF on my organ track and away we go.  Plus I can add reverb.  I think I have read somewhere that SynthFont is streaming from the hard drive or some such.  I only have 128 MB of RAM on the machine I'm using.  The RGCAudio 'sfz' soundfont player won't even load one small soundfont, nevermind two - it gives me a "not enough memory" error.  But I can play three or more separate soundfonts simultaneously using SynthFont on the same system.  SynthFont would suit my purposes fine if it only had a functioning playlist.

However, I have pretty much completed the SF Player I am building with SynthEdit. All I have left to do is to pretty it up.  I've expanded it so that it will play 10 separate sound fonts at the same time (assuming your CPU doesn't choke), along with reverb.  I use Winamp's playlist to send MIDI data into the SF Player.  I can even change sound fonts while the song is still playing - something you cannot do with SynthFont.  This is useful for auditioning different combinations of sounds.

I will post it soon for anyone who might be interested in playing with it.

Some more MIDI to WAV software:

MIDInight Express (http://www.polyhedric.com/software/mn/). Gets a lot of mentions, but I haven't tried it. It's supposed to be good, though.
WAVmaker (http://www.polyhedric.com/software/wavmaker/index.html) is from the same stable as MIDInight Express... and there's
a load of stuff here (http://www.ab-archive.com/Italian/katalle/u66.htm) - the explanations appear to be in English, so this shouldn't be a problem.

This is all untried and untested - but you never know, it may be just the thing you're looking for.

The following is a response I made at the AA Forum in this thread:

http://www.adobeforums.com/cgi-bin/webx?128@176.NcZmc3JWIFn.524979@.3bb4a43d

I'm double-posting for those who might be reading here and not know of the other thread or forum. If the moderators want to edit this post, or take it out entirely, feel free to do so.
---------------------



I've seen this thought expressed essentially in this format in a number of different places. (I'm not saying they were all written by Hink.) Hink, I don't doubt that you know MIDI. But you have contradicted yourself in the same paragraph. For those just beginning to grasp the fundamentals of MIDI, your paragraph can be mighty confusing.

"Wav to MIDI Converters" and "MIDI to Wav Converters" ARE standard headings at any number of sites that categorize PC music products. thanh vu was simply using generic terminology in his question. I think most folks know what he meant: "how do I turn a MIDI file into a Wav file?"

I will beat the drum again for SynthFont as an elegant yet simple solution to thanh vu's problem. This will play MIDI files through soundfonts and will render to wav files. But it is a simple and elegant solution only if you have some decent soundfonts. Note that SynthFont is still under contruction - but it plays and renders to wav files well.

SynthFont: http://www.synthfont.com

You can get some quite nice soundfonts for free from Hammersound or Merlin here:

http://www.hammersound.net
http://www.midi-contest.com

At the Merlin "midi-contest" site - type in any name in the "Name" field, and then click on "Guest". When the slow-loading screen is finally up, click on "Soundfonts" toward the bottom of the screen on the left side. Pull out the individual soundfonts you want by using Awave Studio:

http://www.fmjsoft.com/awframe.html

Put them back together again in a new multi-preset soundfont, using 'megafont'. Some of the text implies that you need a SoundBlaster Live or Audigy to use this. I have neither and have created multi-preset sounfonts from other soundfonts that I extracted using Awave Studio.  (Some authors of multi-preset soundfonts request that users do not pull out individual soundfonts and reassemble them in a different multi-preset soundfont.  Obviously, one should honor such requests.)

http://www.hammersound.net/mirrors/last_night/mf_download.htm

You can either load and play files one at a time in SynthFont (playlist function not activated yet. My guess is that one will need to pay to get that function activated when SynthFont gets out of beta stage). Or you can use the playlist function of a MIDI player such as Winamp - but then you would need to patch Winamp to SynthFont using Hubi's or MIDI Yoke (either seem to work with WinXP).

You can get a nice Native Instrument's B4 clone for free here:

http://www.soundfonts.it/vst/ORGANized/

Most recent version that I have found as of 6-04 is ORGANized Trio v2.0.

.... and I'll thank Bonnder here as there for ORGANized - nice one!

You're welcome.

Given that ORGANized (Hammond?) and Jeux SoundFonfonts (Pipe Organ) are free, I'm thinking that this fall sometime we should start a thread to list folk's favorite organ settings.  I've not had any training on the organ at all, so I'm flying blind when it comes to knowing the theory behind creating good organ settings.

jOrgan's another one.

ORGANized has been upgraded to v2.1.  The author of ORGANized has also just released a Fender-Rhodes Electric Piano clone.  Both can be found here: I haven't tested the Fender-Rhodes clone yet so I may be recommending a flawed product.  But it was authored by the author of ORGANized, so I'm willing to go out on a limb here.

http://www.soundfonts.it/vst/

Oh... oh... oh.... that piano!   Superb!  A must-have!!!

The updated organ has a new sound from the old one.  The documentation in the download lists the changes.  Keep both versions!  Run both at the same time for a mighty sound!!

:) The "Audio Compositor" is a good program. Too bad that the site dissapeared. It does a proper polyphonic rendering.
For de-bug of the cable and I/O card: it has a "direct play" mode from the MIDI input port, although not so good for full real-time rendering of complex sound fonts.
Also, CEP has a remote control feature built in. Just read the status line to verify the connection and the note being played. This helps when you are trying to detemine the correct device address etc.

Good eveing from Greece.

Your posts about midi are really very interesting but I am still confused if I can play my midi files through audition in multitrack mode track 1 and record them onto separate tracks  2+3 or onto track 2 only as stereo wave files.

I need to record stereo wave file from midi files and I ask to know please if this can be done with audition 1.5.

I do not have any external midi devices, only the internal Sw synthesizer from Microsoft under Windows Xp pro Sp1.

What I can do with midis and audition ?

Thanks.

Your quickest and easiest path is to play the midi file using the WMP and record the audio output of that, using Audition.

Joan - give us a bit more information about your setup if you will.  Do you have a MIDI player (e.g., Winamp, the Windows MIDI player, etc.)  MIDI players will send the MIDI code through the GM.DLS soundset referred to above.  When the MIDI code hits the soundset, it gets turned into audio sound.  You can import that audio into CEP/AA using Virtual Audio Cables, as outlined in a post or two above.  Or, with the proper soundcard, you can simply press the red R (record) button in Audition, press "Play" on your MIDI player, and Audition will record the audio that your audio card is producing - without cables.  I can do this with my setup.

With CEP 2.1, I have just loaded a MIDI file in multi-track view (View > Multitrack View); click on Insert > MIDI from file.  I set the MIDI file properties at Options > Device Properties > MIDI Out tab.  I also set the properties at the left side of the MIDI track  (Map > Device).  CEP 2.1 is playing my MIDI file.  It is making the proper sounds.  Of interest is the fact that at Options > Device Properties > MIDI Out tab, I have selected the MIDI Out of my soundcard (this would drive an external keyboard or sound module).  Yet the MIDI file is still playing - making sounds.  It seems that what you set at Map > Device is what controls whether you hear sound or not from CEP playing the MIDI file.  I assume all of this is more or less the same for AA 1.5.

If you load a MIDI file into Track 1 and set your MIDI properties correctly, you should be able to click on the Rec 1 button on Track 2, set your properties as required for your setup, then arm Track 2 for record by clicking on the red "R" button at the left of Track 2, and then click on the "Play" button.

I've given you a couple of options to try, but cannot be more specific without knowing more about your setup.  Let us know if anything suggested here works for you.

If you discover that you can't record your MIDI Player's output directly into AA (that is, you need a virtual cable connection), and you don't want to bother with Virtual Audio Cables - you might try Total Recorder.  It will record your audio stream to a wav file.  You can then open this wav file with AA.

http://www.highcriteria.com/

Good evening from Greece,

Many many thanks for your kind replies to my earliest post.

I couldnt be able to record my midis through audition because of the wrong settings but now everithing is ok.

I have downloaded the miditowav recorder v.3.5 demo and I recorded some midis with it and I can say that I am quite satisfied.

Unfortunately the demo version can only convert the midi file to wave in realtime but anyway I have success to record some midis.

I have checked the settings for midi to wave and I put the same settings into audition and now everithing is ok.

I really dont know if recording my midis to wave with audition the sound quality will be better.

I use windows media player 8 to play my midis through the microsoft software synthesizer.

My motherboard is the asus a7n8x with onboard sound Ac97 nforce2.

I ask please to know why the settings for recording any midi file must be on Midi mapper for output and Wave mapper for input.

It make more sense to me if the settings are Microsoft software synthesizer as midi output and Nvidia audio for recording.

I have tried the Cm's studio vst sampler dS 04 that was given free with the Uk magazine computer music (future publishing) but audition is not support this vst instrument and I ask please to know why.

Many thanks in advance.

Joan

Has anyone mentioned http://www.bostreammail.net/ers/lazysnake.html (Lazysnake electric piano) vsti before?  Wow, it's good.  Donationware.

See here for a discussion of splitting MIDI channels into separate sequencer tracks to be used with, say, a drum sequencer.

http://audiomastersforum.net/amforum/viewtopic.php?t=3329

My setup is Win98se and Cool Edit 2000. Under Options/Settings/Devices is MIDI Out (Music preview) where I can make any one of a number of choices. Some of those apparently send data to a soundcard MIDI  I/O port and some render the MIDI so it can be heard as it plays.

These options also exist in the OS Media Player and in WinAmp. I can't verify the MIDI  I/O since I have no external MIDI devices, but in these two programs all the to-sound options produce audio output as the file plays. However, I find no way to open/import/insert a MIDI file into CE2K, so I can do nothing with one there. It might be that this ability only exists in CE Pro or in Audition, but if so, for what is that MIDI Out option under Devices?

Some more reading on VSTs and VSTis at the Adobe site:

http://www.adobeforums.com/cgi-bin/webx/.3bba6bdb/27
My Pruned List of Handy VST Effects

http://www.adobeforums.com/cgi-bin/webx?128@@.3bb7bbf6
VST Instruments

If you don't have an account there, just log in as "guest".  Also, be sure to click on "Show All Messages" on the right side of the screen to expand the threads.

And for AndyH - my version of CE2K has no option for importing or loading a Midi file either.