Uncommon piano recording

Experimenting means to come close to borders. Recently I did so with a rather uncommon microphone setup in classical piano. I like the result but doubt if I already have come to close to a stereo image common in Jazz. What do the forum readers think about it ?

Well, whatever you did certainly suits the music. In my experience though, jazz very rarely has what could be described as 'realistic' stereo images, even when there's just a solo piano involved.

From what I could hear on headphones, this sounds like one piano, two players, and recorded fairly close to the body of the piano, but in a reverberant space. Shame about the page turn...

You got it completely correct, Steve. As to suppress the not very pleasant reverberance of the room sufficiently, I placed a pair of figure 8 into a Jecklin disc very close to the piano. I know, it's a don't do, but it sounded best in this case and outperformed the addiditional mics in different placements and setups. The only problem was the public faced to the backside of the mics. There is some disturbing noise therefore in this rather quiet excerpt, not only from the page turner ...........

I placed a pair of figure 8 into a Jecklin disc very close to the piano. I know, it's a don't do, but it sounded best in this case and outperformed the addiditional mics in different placements and setups...

It's not a complete don't do - I'm aware of at least one other experiment along similar lines, and that's been written up here, (see paragraph 3). It's also worthy of note that they've applied a Blumlein shuffler to what must for them have been a very similar result, which may well be worth experimenting with, although it's not the only thing you could try - Sheppi is the other thing that springs immediately to mind. Not saying whether any of this would make a genuine improvement to the stereo imaging (which doesn't sound what I'd expect from a Jecklin disk, I must say), but it may be worth a try.

It's also very conceptually similar to Tony Faulkner's parallel AB figure-eight microphone pair method, only with a baffle added.

I enjoyed the ethereal sound you got, and it suited the music.  But it's not a sound I would aim for myself, and so what I would have tried first to deal with a situation like yours would have been quite different.

What made you even think of using figure of eight microphones with a Jecklin disk?  And what type did you use? - they are inevitably side-addressed, and so could be less than convenient if used really close up.

Paul

Thanks Paul for your comment. I expected to raise some controversy and I admit, I did it not really without intention. Let me  thus condense the story behind my rather uncommon arrangement.

The concert was given twice in Zürich by the two young pianists I know from the mastercourses. The first performance was in one of Zürich’s guild houses in the center of town. These historical buildings have bull’s eyes with tin frames in the windows which is a very poor acoustical isolation. As a consequence, the street noise was excessive and ruined the recording. The piano was rather poor also. In addition to this, the venue and the conditions were not very attractive since you need a special permission to drive there with your car to unload the equipment – parking is almost impossible. Furthermore I had one hour time for the setup and to carry the load to the forth floor without elevator. This made me decide to reduce my load and to record only with two microtracks, one with an ORTF, the other with omnis in the Jecklin disk. As I noticed that the recording was spoiled by the noise anyway, during the intermission I set the multipattern mics in the disk to figure of eight – just for fun. I was pleased to find that this brought the best sound for my rating.

The second performance took place in the chapel of Zürich Grossmünster. The chapel is known for strong reverberance, not easy to cope with. As I had ample time and the SD788 on loan for recording, I set up both my usual small Decca tree I had used other times, as well as the figure of eight pair, and a distant ORTF also. Again of all the choices, the figure of eight brought the most clear image, though it is distinctly different from most piano recordings. I am eager to hear if the performers like it or hate it.

Very interesting, Bert! I am not keen on trying to find a common frame of reference for language to describe tone, but, yes, the sound is somewhat ethereal, and definitely suits the four hands! I enjoyed this and have listened several times...

I have a question: What piano is this? The reason I ask, is that I was recently involved in the purchase of a new piano for our home and studio, and spent some time seeking out and listening to what was available in western Canada. Admittedly, here in the "hinterlands", we do not have the most impressive selection available at dealers. That's why I spent some time travelling to other cities. We DO have a fair representation of the Japanese brands, as well as a select few of the European brands. I must admit that I have never been a big fan of the Japanese pianos, especially Yamahas. Although meticulously crafted, they always seemed so overbearing in the upper registers, that I shyed away...

This piano strikes me as being that way. I have admired German pianos for their more modest voicing in the upper range, and ended up buying a Bechstein this time. The company has been through some turmoil in the past 20 years, but their new models have impressed. I gather that this is a German piano...?

Phil, I am pleased to hear that at least some of the forum members find my sound OK.

About the piano I share your opinion about the Yamahas. They are excellent for Jazz, especially for stride piano and Boogie for which I remember them as very bright. Not so for classical. The one on the recording is a Steinway B. Presumably a european model – you are certainly aware of the split of the company into an US wing and a european one. The first one on the rejected recording was a small Yamaha too – not really convincing.

I have a very good opinion about the Bechstein pianos. I know their sound, since they invite people often for concerts into their big Berlin showrooms where their pianos are played by very good artists.  I have been there a number of times.  You certainly made a good choice by that brand. Best known to me is the big Bösendorfer D that is the tool for the mastercourses, but in Europe, there are also some other serious factories such as Fazioli or Steingruber. Since I am not a player, I can only rate the sound on a very personal base. 

I have a very good opinion about the Bechstein pianos.

So do I - I have one!

For those who like the piano in a more common style, I add another excerpt of the same concert with a more conventional live mixdown of all 8 mics set up.

Phil, I am pleased to hear that at least some of the forum members find my sound OK.

Who hasn't???

a more conventional live mixdown of all 8 mics set up.

Actually, I preferred the other!  This sounds (on headphones - I can't use speakers right now as my wife has gone to bed) bass-heavy - or rather, the bass sounds very "thick".  I guess this might be the piano, or more likely (as the piano's a Steinway B) the acoustic coming through more in the bass, but it seemed better controlled in the earlier clip - though there was less bass in the playing, too, I think.  I guess the figure 8 mics were good in rolling off the bass of the acoustic while keeping up the instrument bass through proximity effect.

The one on the recording is a Steinway B. Presumably a european model – you are certainly aware of the split of the company into an US wing and a european one.

When my son played in the Zankel Hall at Carnegie Hall last year, he got Steinway to bring round a European instrument in preference to playing any of the American ones available in the hall (he just felt they weren't right for the pieces in the recital).  Cost him a third of his fee (that's how important getting it right was to him) for them to move it a couple of hundred yards from Steinway Hall opposite.

Paul

This time I have to apologize to Paul and the other members because I did fool them. The sample is indeed the live 8 mics mixdown, but it is taken from my very last resort consisting of a SONY WM6DC professional walkman which is always run for fun. This machine dates from 1983 and is still going strong without any revision. No hum, no wow, no flutter and (I think) an acceptable sound quality from one of the ridiculous CC (although pure iron and Dolby B this time). I admit that I used some hiss reduction in AA3.01 which also impairs the transient response slightly, as well as a minor treble boost to compensate for that. Astounding how long good craftmenship lasts if care is behind it. A have a second one which is in the same condition.

Sure I am not going back to analog, since the small M-Audio Mictrotrack outperforms them without any doubt. But does it last so long ? 

To compensate for being so malicious, I add the same excerpt from the live mixdown track on the Microtrack (untouched) as well as a less boomy version of the analog one. I hope you are forgiving.

When my son played in the Zankel Hall at Carnegie Hall last year, he got Steinway to bring round a European instrument in preference to playing any of the American ones available in the hall (he just felt they weren't right for the pieces in the recital).  Cost him a third of his fee (that's how important getting it right was to him) for them to move it a couple of hundred yards from Steinway Hall opposite.

Oh yes Paul, I know some stories about pianos and their players. The idea of your son having the piano of his selection is just a tame one. Once I had a very long discussion with the tuner during the mastercourses which came to my mixdown room to hear the recordings. (It ended up at 3 in the morning !). As he used to be one of the selected tuners at Zürich Tonhalle he came into close contact with many of the famous pianists. Selecting the right piano was just one of the minor problems although this meant to go on tour to the local halls of the representatives.

One of the very famous fellows was feared by all the tuners since he wanted to have every single key twiddled according to his wish. This done and the concert bye - the result was that the piano could not be used any more before a complete overhaul. A few days before such a concert, almost every appointed tuner was sick, in holiday or not available for whatever other reason. I better do not start the discussion about the reference pitch .........

Nic is at least reasonable about it - a pianist like that should simply take his own piano with him, like (if I remember correctly) Michelangeli, or possibly Pollini (whom I heard in the Carnegie Hall the day after Nic).

Paul