Playing Live!!!!!!!!!

Calling on all Engineers / Guitarists / people with live sound experience!!!!!!!!

Thoughts on my using the Fender Champ (modded / Tone control off) at Lion’s Den...
Lion's Den - Stage

I like the sound of the Champ raw distorted sound W/ EMG active pickups on the Tele. Need to work this out.

This amp has an attenuator switch I built to turn power down example: small spaces / rehearsals. Using the low power setting at rehearsals: people are saying this amp (5 watt) lacks power for the gig. Valid point. Power vs.sound. On one hand you need the power to reach the audience, and you also need your sound that drives the music forward. Mike the champ? I can bring my Peavey Backstage 35 watt amp (solid-state), or use another guitarists Fender amp – bringing the Analogman SunLion pedal (Sunlion: high freq boost switch / fuzz switch).

How Keith Richards uses a Fender Champ live

Boosting guitar when you solo - Turn up your volume? Right? Sounds Simple!!! When I set the Champ on 6 – it gives a nice raw crunch sound. A great rock sound. Raw and in your face. I tried turning up volume, but noticed solos were not cutting through the band sound. Is this is where the Champ has its limits, and where using a more powerful amp works best? I could play though the Champ AND a second Clean amp for solos.....

People say it’s all in the hands. True. If the amp limits out with distortion then changing the amp allows the hands to do more? Friday's the gig!!!!

3rd Rehearsal Sunday / Today. Went really well. Full band. We played together. Ended songs like a real band - if you don't know how it ends - go with the vibe and make it happen!!!
Looking forward to a great show!!!!!!!!!!!

You certainly do not need a 100 watt full stack!  I've seen plenty bands play large venues with very small tube amps mic'd.  FWIW, I have a 100 watt tube head and the loudest I've ever set it at a venue is 3....and even that was probably way too loud.

Most sound guys I've talked to seem to prefer a quieter stage volume (and as a musician I think I would too!).  I am not too familiar with the Champ(does it have a loop?), or it's modifications (if you have done any to it).....but if you like the sound you have I would try to find a way to get a clean boost for solos. With the amp set low enough does the sunlion provide a good enough boost for solos?  Perhaps leave it set at an acceptable level and let the sound guy take care of the mix.  The bad part about this idea is: - you will have to rely on the sound guy, and sometimes you get stuck with somebody who does not know what they are doing...or perhaps do not even care.  Hopefully the venue with have good stage monitoring. I hope (for your sake) that your drummer is not a heavy hitter! 

Fender Champ // Blackface 1967
mod 1 - Tone control OFF / On - Switch
mod 2 - Feedback OFF / On - Switch
mod 4 - new power transformer inside
mod 5 - speaker out - 1/4" plug output installed
mod 6 - Kendrick 8" speaker

I've seen plenty bands play large venues with very small tube amps mic'd.

Hey!!!!!! This way seems like it can work.

I can unattenuate the amp / keep amp at 4 (Cleaner sound) instead of 6 (where my crunch happens) / use the treble boost of the Sun Lion pedal to do solos. Or keep it at 6 and turn the guitar down (active EMG pickups on a 74'tele).

Other point: the Fender Champ is $$$$$$$$ / Vintage gear. Should I risk it being stolen at this gig? We're inviting lots of news people to see / listen to the singer.
The sound that drives the band is a signature sound. If pushed, I can play with any amp.

Your thoughts..............

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Drummer and I recently fought over the female singer. I told him play the drums like he wants to kill me!!! He plays really hard. Still alive!!! For blues rock it sounds great!!!!
Noticed I really need to keep an eye on drummer RE: speeding / slowing time. Had to exaggerate guitar playing to let drummer know when changes happen / correct timing.

Producing - Live!!!!!!!

Brewer

Other point: the Fender Champ is $$$$$$$$ / Vintage gear. Should I risk it being stolen at this gig? We're inviting lots of news people to see / listen to the singer.
The sound that drives the band is a signature sound. If pushed, I can play with any amp.

Your thoughts..............

This would definitely be more of a personal preference thing.  Since the Champ is a fairly small size it would be easier for someone to walk up and carry it off than a larger amp.  Unless you were guarding it.  In the past that's what I've done, stood with my gear until I had the opportunity to put it somewhere safe.

The general truth is that for most live club rock gigs subtleties of sound of the amp are lost in the wash of total sound of event.  Does not mean a player should not be sensitive to their 'signature' sound . . . but wouldn't stress the band dynamic by obsessing over it.   If you're comfortable with sound of the Champ, get it off the floor, use it as a stage monitor and hope that you've got a chance for a sound check  difference in perceived sound between 5 & 50 watts, all other things being equal, maxes at double . . . max loudness of 50 only twice that of 5

That said I would find the champ to be a little under powered for majority of modern 'rock' gigs.  Nor is it specifically the 'watt' rating. In crowded venue I think I'd find the 8 in. speaker a bit anemic in terms of moving air . . . even as a stage monitor.  But that is something that can be dependent on genre, style of music, and the venue and pretty much only experience will demonstrate one way or the other.

Set up I use that is similar uses a 50's vintage 15 watt Fender with a 15 in speaker.  (This was mod'd with a tap after the 12AX7 stage, and a splitter so the internal speaker could be by-passed for an external cabinet).  I tend to avoid excess pedals so limitation with this set up is amp has only a single channel .. . but, particularly if I have doubts about sound man, I will use a Johnson or Vox modeler that can split guitar signal, still use amp as stage monitor mic it but also route modeler through the PA . . . the modelers, used in lieu of a sea of pedals offer enormous opportunity for signal boost and tone variation at the touch of a switch

I use with some regularity two other set ups.  A 40 watt A/B combo that has a single 12 but has power to drive an external twin twelve cabinet as well.  Whether I need the external cabinet depends less of style on music then the venue (with some nod towards management & crowd expectations, as a rule I avoid ear bleed music of any genre).  Generally I still mic one of the speakers.  This amp has a dual channel, if I can get by with two 'sounds' though whether the 'clean' is used for rhythm or solo varies, this is a fairly convenient set up.  The third, while perhaps the cheapest and lightest, is perhaps the most flexible.  Though it does lack tube snobbery.  The VOX AD50, single 12 combo not only has a relatively functional built in attenuator but can, though it then by passes the internal speaker, drive an external twin twelve or quad ten cabinet.   Again the built in modeling functions primarily to allow me to reduce pedal and cable clutter.  Anything that speeds load in/load out is beneficial.

There are any number of risks, particularly with tube gear, imposed by live shows far more likely then mere thievery.  And I think I've had more stuff go walk about from studios then from live shows.  More to the point recording and live can impose very different criteria on gear.  My recording gear includes an 80's vintage solid state, a different solid state VOX (from 90's), a proto Princeton (about the only thing left original in any case is the fender logo . . . it is brutally ugly but reflects the Princeton concept), an AC15 and HiWatt 100 watt head.  That frequently, for recording, is run through an attenuator and into any of a half dozen cabinets: Celestion, Jensen & Eminence (couple of different types), 8, 10 & 12 in (though only Eminence is represented in all three dimensions). 

For me probably the most telling limitation of the champ is your indication that you need to set volume @ 6, but that anything above that increases distortion beyond acceptable solo, generally speaking, levels . . . That simply is a not a flexible enough amp for live situations.  To correct it with external pedals simply loses the individual characteristics of the amp (at best the amp functions as just another Fx . . . which should not be why you spend the big $ on an amp . . . )  With the pre-amp set to 7 on the 40 watt A/B the 'dirty' channel sounds only marginally different from the 'clean' . . . the less subtle distinctions then occur @ 8, 9, & 10, while master volume (& attenuator) simply control the perceived loudness.  Generally speaking, if the Champ has the original 60's pots, if you can't start the shake down at 7 there is either a problem with the amp or it's the wrong amp for the application

good luck (break a leg (drummer's leg , or) on the show

The FOH POV-
Chris is right, I generally prefer a quieter stage.  This assumes that the amp is mic'd and the PA has sufficient stamina for me to nail the room with.  The last tour I did with a band had two guitar rigs.  Both fed isolation enclosures off stage.  The whole band was on IEMs. I loved it!  I am also not a fan of twin or quad cabinets/combos.  Anytime you start putting multiple drivers together the pattern starts to change, generally it gets narrower.  This can make for guitar hotspots in the audience and grief for the FOH engineer (if he or she's paying attention).  I like single 12 combos.  They seem to have the power to get a reasonable sound for most players without being overkill that makes my life difficult.  That said, I don't play so I always defer to what will make the guitarist most comfortable in th end.  If carrying the champ is going to make you worry about theft, don't take it.  Why stress about it.
Just my $.02
John

The FOH POV-
Chris is right, I generally prefer a quieter stage.  This assumes that the amp is mic'd and the PA has sufficient stamina for me to nail the room with.  The last tour I did with a band had two guitar rigs.  Both fed isolation enclosures off stage.  The whole band was on IEMs. I loved it!  I am also not a fan of twin or quad cabinets/combos.  Anytime you start putting multiple drivers together the pattern starts to change, generally it gets narrower.  This can make for guitar hotspots in the audience and grief for the FOH engineer (if he or she's paying attention).  I like single 12 combos.  They seem to have the power to get a reasonable sound for most players without being overkill that makes my life difficult.  That said, I don't play so I always defer to what will make the guitarist most comfortable in th end.  If carrying the champ is going to make you worry about theft, don't take it.  Why stress about it.
Just my $.02
John

Thanks for the input John!  I was hoping you would jump into this conversation since I know you've had a lot of experience in this area (and with some great groups I might add).

Reading all the great input!!!!!!!!! Thanks.

indication that you need to set volume @ 6,

The Champ was on 6 / attenuated  - so as not to sound too loud. I could easily run it to max and take off the attenuation. Possibly live (if I use this amp) that's the answer.
Original pots? Gerald Weber replaced the power transformer on the Champ.

Tubes
12AX7 = Telefunken ECC
Tung Sol 6550
GZ34 rectifier

Good advice - less FX and more direct guitar to amp. Thank you.
One method I read: Use a distortion pedal for solos (SD1):  Volume on pedal @ 12:00 w/ distortion set @ 9:00am - the pedal is really a volume boost w/ a bit of crunch.


Amp Taste Test
Right Click / Download Zip file

Tubes / 8” Kendrick Speaker / 5 Watts
Fender Blackface Champ / 5 Watts / Mod by Gerald Weber
http://www.liquidfusion.net/Fender_Champ_Amp__5Watt.zip
Zip File = 3.6MB

Solid State / 10” Speaker / 35 Watts
Peavey Backstage Plus 35 Watts
Zip File = 3.8MB
http://www.liquidfusion.net/Peavey_BackstagePlus_Amp__35Watt.zip
I played a small club a few years ago with the Peavey + guitar - and it sounded fine. The Peavey can sound metallic / bright. The Champ brown - a great rock sound!!!!

Amp Taste Test
Right Click / Download Zip file

Tubes / 8” Kendrick Speaker / 5 Watts
Fender Blackface Champ / 5 Watts / Mod by Gerald Weber
http://www.liquidfusion.net/Fender_Champ_Amp__5Watt.zip
Zip File = 3.6MB

Solid State / 10” Speaker / 35 Watts
Peavey Backstage Plus 35 Watts
Zip File = 3.8MB
http://www.liquidfusion.net/Peavey_BackstagePlus_Amp__35Watt.zip
I played a small club a few years ago with the Peavey + guitar - and it sounded fine. The Peavey can sound metallic / bright. The Champ brown - a great rock sound!!!!

For my personal taste, I like the more "open" high end of the Peavey.  I think that it may "cut" through more in a band context.  Of course, this is just like picking ice cream....everybody is different.

What about using both amps - Champ set high vol for distortion / Peavey set clean

Tele Guitar w/ EMG 85 pickups - (Pedals: 1. SunLion 2. Boss SD1 ) - Chorus / spilt signal - Amp 1 (Fender Champ) // Amp 2  (Peavey BackStage Plus)

Is that a good idea?

Brewer

What about using both amps - Champ set high vol for distortion / Peavey set clean

Is that a good idea?

Well, with some rather more substantial hardware, it worked for Hendrix...

What about using both amps - Champ set high vol for distortion / Peavey set clean

Mic both.  Make sure FOH understands how you're going to play them (one at time, both together, a little of each).  If they're willing to listen, be ready to explain why you decide to go that way.  Be sure you've tried this setup out in advance so you aren't killing time in the venue trying to figure it out.  An A/B/BOTH switch is good for this sort of setup if you can get one.
YMMV

Analogman - Switchboxes

Ended up using another bands Fender Twin Reverb. Great amp.

Monitor stage sound vs. audience sound!!!!!!!!!!! They had the stage monitor sound way too high for the singer and as a result it was hard to hear the other guitar. Audience couldn't hear the singer!!! Interesting things to deal with to "produce" a great live show.

What an experience playing live - when musicians are suddenly playing other parts of the song!!!! I dropped down to the root chord and built up the rhythm / double-stopped leads again. Can't stop!!! Original material, How will people know the difference - if the band gets back on track? And we did!!!!!!! In the groove - nothing can go wrong. A very good place to be.

We followed a rap band - that followed a rock band. What a challenge. Killed the audience. Many people left when the rap band went on. Didn't let it get to me. The show must go on!!!!!!

Bottom Line: We kicked ass!!! A rock / blues band had people dancing in the club!!!!!!!!