too much latency with Smart input??

I have searched for this problem and some others have had it but I have not seemed to be able to find a solution that works for me.

I am using a Motu 828 firewire sound card.  I want to monitor the input levels as I record so I have it on "smart input" when I do that I get too much latency it sounds like there are two signals coming through to the headphones because there is what sounds like an echo, but I can seem to track it down and get rid of it.

I am going through the mixer to the sound card and I am listening through the headphone outs on the sound card. 

any help? or ideas

You should be using "Monitor External" when monitoring via the MOTU.

Are you using the MOTU ASIO drivers? If so try turning the ASIO buffer down. But then when you are going to do mixing turn the buffer back up.
If that still don't get you what you want you might want to set up an external monitoring system.

I don't want to hijack this thread but this is a topic which has been bothering me off & on for some time.

Ronmac is correct that you need to monitoring externally to eliminate that latency/echo and tarnationsauce2's 'turning the buffer down' solution will also minimise (possibly eliminate) latency - however here is where I have the problem.......

I have pretty much as fast a setup as possible and even with the buffer down to 256 I still get a hint of latency (enough to annoy me) if I monitor internally.

So I monitor externally and have done so date - no latency.

However (simple scenario) if I have a vocalist recording over a multitrack and he has to do a drop in then the level of the vox he has just put down is much lower coming off the recorded track to what he hears when he sings.  If I bump up the track gain then of course the new take is recorded at an even higher level so thats a no no.

I have started experimenting with headphone busses and that seemed like an excellent idea EXCEPT when you drop in you cant heaewhats on that track ecause you are now recording to that track and can only hear what is actually being recorded - so thats a no no.

This is all related and I am now back to using an external mixer etc which is fine for a few tracks but when I have 3 or 4 in the studio unless I buy an Allen & Heath desk with 6 aux sends and 24 track input I can't get the HP mix I want/need for all the tracks & people

Between AA & my RME routing software I should be able to easily get what I want but I must be missing something.

Sorry if i have hijacked this thread but I think its all very much related.

However (simple scenario) if I have a vocalist recording over a multitrack and he has to do a drop in then the level of the vox he has just put down is much lower coming off the recorded track to what he hears when he sings.  If I bump up the track gain then of course the new take is recorded at an even higher level so thats a no no.

A trick I do for external monitoring is to use a different mic for monitoring purposes.
That way I can run the mic for recording straight into a Neve outboard preamp (not a mixer) into my interface and have the levels perfectly set.
On a separate stand I have another mic that is not recorded but goes into my Mackie 8.bus for monitoring purposes only.
This only works for mic setups where the mics are stationary. If your singer is singing into a handheld (like a SM7B or soemthing) you will need to use internal monitoring or route the preamp through your mixer for external monitoring.

I have started experimenting with headphone busses and that seemed like an excellent idea EXCEPT when you drop in you cant heaewhats on that track ecause you are now recording to that track and can only hear what is actually being recorded - so thats a no no.

This is all related and I am now back to using an external mixer etc which is fine for a few tracks but when I have 3 or 4 in the studio unless I buy an Allen & Heath desk with 6 aux sends and 24 track input I can't get the HP mix I want/need for all the tracks & people.

I am not sure how much I/O you do have on your mixer (or interface), but you can run a bus out of AA into the mixer for the headphone monitoring (mixed with the extra mic I spoke about above).
I even have the AA click track on all the time running out of it's own interface outputs to a channel of my mixer and control it's volume / muting with the mixer.

To get around the problem of not hearing what you previously did, just make a duplicate track and alternate takes. then once you are done combine them. In AA3 it's even easier just set up one track and duplicate it. In AA2 you will have to manually set up the I/O volume, pan, bussing, etc.

Latency is hugely dependent on the hardware too. MOTU PCI cards are a perfect example. Using a PCI 324 vs. a 424 card there is about a 200ms difference and that can lead to echoing. A 424 card has virtually no delay.

Thanks tarnation Some valid things here but quite frankly this is way more hard than it should be given that this should be readily achievable between AA, outboard mixer and RME routing capability and this is just a simple example involving one individual being recorded - its magnified in difficulty once I get a band in.

What I would like is to repatch my monitoring (yet again) setup some new AA templates and hit record and have the headphone mixes that I need.

I need to think this out (yet again)   

However (simple scenario) if I have a vocalist recording over a multitrack and he has to do a drop in then the level of the vox he has just put down is much lower coming off the recorded track to what he hears when he sings.  If I bump up the track gain then of course the new take is recorded at an even higher level so thats a no no.

I have started experimenting with headphone busses and that seemed like an excellent idea EXCEPT when you drop in you cant heaewhats on that track ecause you are now recording to that track and can only hear what is actually being recorded - so thats a no no.

I'm a little confused by a couple of things. If the vocal track is too quiet can you not just bump up the playback level of that track in Audition?

Also, when you drop in on a track it is normal to not hear the old track while you are recording the new track. After all, you are dropping in because there was something wrong with the old track.

I must admit that I find it easier to use an external mixer for this sort of thing but I never use more than a couple of auxes for headphone mixes - you can usually find a workable compromise between the different musicians.

Cheers

James.

I'm a little confused by a couple of things. If the vocal track is too quiet can you not just bump up the playback level of that track in Audition?

Also, when you drop in on a track it is normal to not hear the old track while you are recording the new track. After all, you are dropping in because there was something wrong with the old track.

I must admit that I find it easier to use an external mixer for this sort of thing but I never use more than a couple of auxes for headphone mixes - you can usually find a workable compromise between the different musicians.

Hey James
Monitoring externally sure you can bump up the audio that has been laid down but that then bumps up the input gain of that same track that you are dropping into - so thats really not on.
When you monitor internally I'm talking about hearing the already recorded vox on the same track leading into the drop in point .

I have been using an external mixer but that doesn't suit I should be able to do a monitor mix from within AA

Hey James
Monitoring externally sure you can bump up the audio that has been laid down but that then bumps up the input gain of that same track that you are dropping into - so thats really not on.
When you monitor internally I'm talking about hearing the already recorded vox on the same track leading into the drop in point .

When I'm overdubbing I will always have the recorded track set up so that it plays at the same volume as the new track. If the artist doesn't like this then I will adjust the level manually on my external mixer between record and playback. I'm not sure what I would do if it was all in the box. I don't quite understand your comment about bumping up input gain - surely the track level control in Audition only affects the output level of the track - not the input (or has this changed in V3?).

As far as the second point is concerned - does Audition support input only monitoring?

Cheers

James.

[almost]

Correction - I meant volume ie track fader not input gain.

Sure you can probably muck around and get the same record/playback levels and then adjust on the external mixer but this really only works for one or te artists at a time.

What I want to achieve is say 4 discrete headphone mixes.

I can almost do it with setting up 4 buses and using sends but depending upon if you use external or internal monitoring there are downsides to both.

Its a little while since I've tried this but from memory the problems were
Internal - latency (ever so slight but enough to be annoying)
External - when recording you don't get the playback going out the bus for a drop in on the same track

I have to try all this again to nut it all out but this should be readily achievable from within AA IMO
External -