Another problem involving MT mixer

In this thread I pointed out a problem I've been having in the MT mixer on playback. It turns out there that the problem isn't confined to one sound interface, but ASIO4all provides a work around.

My next problem is that if you have several tracks and you are using the new Send feature on a track, that track (i.e. the one sending) can be extremely slow to respond to fader movements. If I send to a bus with full reverb applied to it, there is about a 6 sec delay between fading to zero and the level (and meters) actually changing. Interestingly, if I mute such a track the meters mute immediately, but the sound plays on.

This time, effects other than full reverb seem to have no (or negligible) problem.

Also this time, ASIO4all doesn't help.

Both my desktop (with 2 different sound cards) and my laptop (with its internal sound) exhibit the same behaviour.

This is probably due to the delay compensation mechanism working.  Again, I've seen something similar happening here with extremely processor-heavy effects such as the Full Reverb.

Alan, any general feelings yet on the suitability of the Onyx/AA2.0 combo for live recording and postprocessing?

An Onyx/Mackie Control one-piece combo might be handy - I can't believe they won't introduce such a thing soon - so obvious!

This is probably due to the delay compensation mechanism working.  Again, I've seen something similar happening here with extremely processor-heavy effects such as the Full Reverb.

Not sure. I would have thought the delay compensation was of the order of milliseonds, I've been getting several seconds.

I haven't tried many other effects, but the multitap delay, reverb and studio reverb and the multiband compressor don't seem to give any problem at all. It's only the full reverb where I've noticed a problem. I'll have to stop using it.

Alan, any general feelings yet on the suitability of the Onyx/AA2.0 combo for live recording and postprocessing?

An Onyx/Mackie Control one-piece combo might be handy - I can't believe they won't introduce such a thing soon - so obvious!

I've only had a very quick play from this POV, but I'll take the laptop on a couple of gigs on Australia Day (actually, we have an early Aust Day gig tomorrow) just to try it out. I'll report back. The hardware worked beautifully with Tracktion, but I expect the Audition experience to be much better.

The Mackie forum has had mention of adding control surface facilities to the Onyx, but no word from Mackie. As it stands, the firewire interface isn't designed for it, and adding motorised faders to the Onyx would be a major undertaking. Of course we're talking about a new product really, incorporating all these ideas. And a very nice product too.

I haven't tried many other effects, but the multitap delay, reverb and studio reverb and the multiband compressor don't seem to give any problem at all. It's only the full reverb where I've noticed a problem. I'll have to stop using it.

Well, that's what Adobe says:

Important: Realtime playback works correctly for the majority of effects in Audition 2.0, with the exception of convolution effects. Some of these effects are so processor-intensive that they will tax realtime playback on even the fastest computer systems.

The following list includes convolution-based effects:

-- Full Reverb

-- Reverb

-- Echo Chamber

I considered Tracktion for live work - I started to quite like it once over the "gui learning curve" - but found that clicking practically anywhere would interrupt recording.  And while sitting through a long classical concert I like to fiddle.  And not in a violinistic way.

Well, that's what Adobe says:

Important: Realtime playback works correctly for the majority of effects in Audition 2.0, with the exception of convolution effects. Some of these effects are so processor-intensive that they will tax realtime playback on even the fastest computer systems.

The following list includes convolution-based effects:

-- Full Reverb

-- Reverb

-- Echo Chamber

Yes, I understood that, I just wasn't expecting several seconds delay. Of the processor intensive effects I tried only full reverb was a noticeable problem. I've now tried Echo Chamber & it's a problem too. I also didn't expect it to manifest itself in the way that it did. I thought such problems as stuttering and breaking up were more likely.

I suppose if we must have a problem this way is better - probably a deliberate programming decision, trading off one problem against another. It looks like we'll have to get used to it.

Of the 3 convolution based effects, Full Reverb is the slothiest.  Depending on the number of reflections and calculation-intensive parameters, there can be several seconds delay when tweaking those params in real-time.  Once automation data is written, subsequent real-time playback of those changes are better as the system can pre-process them.  The effects also cache the convolution profile so that subsequent playbacks occur faster - at least until changes are made.

Wow, that barely makes sense to me.  Short version: yeah, these 3 effects are not real-time responsive to many parameter changes.  Hopefully, they make up for it in eventual sonic quality for those whose ears have finicky tastes.

After spending some time mixing down material recorded at a gig last week, and using Glaceverb instead of Full Reverb, I've managed to avoid the problem I originally outlined. It's still there of course, and I suppose we must accept different work practices as a price to pay for some of the improvements. Two steps forward, one backwards.  

Alan, any general feelings yet on the suitability of the Onyx/AA2.0 combo for live recording and postprocessing?

On Australia Day I used that combo to record 3 sets of approx. 50 min each, 6 tracks. At the end of each set I just stopped recording. Before starting a set I started recording, it recorded non-destructively and at the end I just closed AA. No dramas, it was all there when I got home. More tracks would be a better test of course. Now I'm into the post-processing stage & still no dramas. AA2 seems very suitable to me. The move away from temp files is a huge improvement - my laptop no longer needs Tracktion (although I'll continue to use it for some of my MIDI work).

Interesting feedback, Alan.  I think it's absolutely spot on for live work now.  But last I recall hearing, Karl Zemlin was having problems and wasn't at all sure - what's the latest on that front??

But last I recall hearing, Karl Zemlin was having problems and wasn't at all sure - what's the latest on that front??

Not enough time to play - haven't recorded a single peep in many weeks and probably won't be able to get much into it until the new studio is done.  At this point, the new studio space looks more like the inside of a storage shed then anything else.