Syntrillium Backup Forums :: View topic - Terratec DMX 6fire 24/96 RIAA vs. CEP 2.0

Swede1 · Location: Sweden

Anyone run into this scenario and can offer some help ?

Got my turntable plugged into the phono inputs of the DMX 6fire 24/96 card. I can record fine in CEP if the RIAA EQ is disabled in the DMX 6fire 24/96 control panel (ofcourse a horrible "tinny" unequalized sound).

As soon as I enable RIAA EQ, the sound ofcourse sounds like it's coming from a "normal" record player, but when I try to record in CEP (44.1KHz, 16 bit , stereo, or any variation thereof) I get an error message from CEP saying "the specified format is notsupported and can not be translated".

So I'm left with recording the vinyl without the RIAA equalization which I suppose is fine as long as I can do post-RIAA eq'ing by some filter in CEP. Can that be done ?

Anyone ?

AndyH · Posted - Thu Oct 03, 2002 2:34 pm

there are a variety of threads about post-recording RIAA equalization, and how to do it. Search should turn them up. However, something is clearly wrong at your source. Who knows what the soundcard is doing, but it seems extremely unlikely that it produces a different "format" just because equalization is engaged.

If the equalizaton is controled via the software control panel, is it perhaps software to begin with, that is, not being done in the card but by a program interfacing between the card and CE? Perhaps that program is not set-up correctly and thinks it is talking to a Mac or some specialized application.

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

Yes, as Andy says, it can be done, but there are some potential Signal to Noise ratio issues. What is more annoying/worrying is that this problem is happening at all! The Terratec FAQ list doesn't really address this issue, but there is one slightly bizzare idea there that might be worth trying, and that is to put the card in a different PCI slot. It's a bit late here to do this now, but I will contact my nephew, who has one of these cards (and had some fun installing it!) tomorrow and ask him whether he has experienced any difficulty with this.

The card itself (and its breakout box) seem to be getting pretty popular, and this is the first time I've heard of this particular problem, so I'm inclined to think that this might just be an anomoly within your system that can hopefully be sorted out.

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

Okay, I've spoken to my nephew, who says that he's been using the RIAA option just fine for the last couple of weeks with both XP and Win2k. But I thought about your error message, and this is also a bit odd. I think that as well as changing the slot the card is in, you should perhaps download and install the latest drivers and set the card up again, because this option really should be working fine.

Swede1 · Location: Sweden

Thanks for all your tips and suggestions ! Great forum with very helpful people. I also think that it's a Terratec driver issue and I'm, awaiting response from their tech support. Tried fiddling with IRQ's and clock-rate on the card itself to no avail. If I do get it working it may be a dead end anyway cause the RIAA (software) filtering doesn't sound too good anyway, but it's hard to tell when you cant record it and play around with it some.

Will post here if I find a solution to this. Otherwise it's time for a new soundcard Wink

there have been other problems with this particular Terratec card. Anyone who can suggest a good sound card with hardware RIAA (and "phono") inputs ?

Thanks

Bengt

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

Swede1 · Location: Sweden

The other problems I had (your mileage may vary) with this card (Terratec DMX 6fire 24/96) has been:

I did fry my stereo preamp by plugging in the tape outputs to the rear of the terratec card, though a disclaimer is in place, it may have been caused by "user stupidity" as I may have plugged it into the wrong place on the card (like the line output) causing a too high voltage on the preamp inputs thus sending it to the repair shop.

However, I did have a playback problem with some sounds not playing at all until "primed" by playing a short "click" wave file or something similar. For example, the notify sounds in ICQ or NetMeeting wouldn't play by themselves unless there was another sound playing at the same time (like an MP3 in winamp or similar). Also a movie played in Windows Media player would sometimes be silent until you played one of these short "click" .WAV files, then the sound of the movie would magically be turned on.
Terratec support told me to try to enable the feature called "Sensaura 3D" in the Terratec control panel and that did the trick, why I don't know. They just said it had to do with sample conversion rates, but as long as I keep that option enabled, all sounds play ok.

Seems this card has a problem with sample rates related to the Terratec driver software (my un-educated opinion only), probably what's causing the RIAA problem as well.

My system is:
Win2k Pro
Asus A7V266-E Motherboard (KT266A chip set)
AMD Athlon XP 1800+ CPU
Matrox G400 display card
1 GB of RAM
3 hard drives
DVD ROM
CD burner
All 5 PCI slots occupied

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

Thanks for the info - this may save somebody else a phone call!

Graeme · Member Location: Spain

Carl-Axel · Location: Sweden

Hello Swede1,
I have the same experience - when recording into CE2k, the RIAA filter of my TerraTec 6fire 24/96 is disabled. I do the RIAA correction after recording. It does not matter to me. I found the RIAA characteristic in a old magazine - dialled in all the numbers in the FFT filter section, gave it a name and use it as a preset.

The only problem with doing so is that recording without a RIAA correction the total amplitude of the signal is in some cases a little bit too high causing the signal to be clipped. (Picup is Ortophone OM2 having a high output). Oh yes, the recording controls are at minimum. So, I probably have to put in a voltage divider at the output of the turntable cable.

/Carl-Axel

Carl-Axel · Location: Sweden

Bengt,

If post recording RIAA filtering is interesting for you, here is the way to do it:

Open the FFT filters and pick any filter.

Check the following boxes:
- Logaritmic
- Log scale
- Spline Curves

Chose an FFT size in accordance with your choice; big => long time and better quality, 2048 or 4096 might be good compromises

Window function: I use the Blackman. Can#8217;t tell the difference.

Set the window limits to: Max 20 dB, and Min #8211;20 dB

Right click on one of the black spots in the filter characteristic you have chosen. A window pops up. Fill in the below numbers point by point and you have got yourself a nice RIAA filter.

Fq(Hz) (dB)
20 19.3
30 18.6
40 17.8
50 17.0
60 16.1
80 14.5
100 13.1
200 8.2
300 5.5
400 3.8
500 2.7
600 1.8
800 0.8
1k 0.0
2k -2.6
3k -4.7
4k -6.6
5k -8.2
6k -9.6
8k -11.9
10k -13.7
16k -17.7
20k -19.6

Click #8220;add#8221; and Christian it.

Observations:
- You will notice that you can dial in the numbers, but CE changes the values slightly. This will hardly be noticeable in the final result. (Maybe it depends on the FFT size chosen??? I have not checked)
- Your file needs to be 44.1 / 16 (at least in CE2k)
- This filter will have a zero (dB) amplification at 1 kHz.
- You will se that after having applied the filter to your WAV, the overall amplitude will be reduced. By setting the #8220;Max#8221; to 25 dB and #8220;Min#8221; to #8211;15 dB, you have got yourself an RIAA filter that amplifies with 5 dB at 1 kHz. By changing the Max and Min values, you can have different amplification- or attenuation- factors of the filter.

Good Luck
Carl-Axel

Swede1 · Location: Sweden

Thanks for that info, drifting slightly off-topic, I followed your advice and created the filter and tried it on one of the 45's I have. As far as I can tell (hear), the "software RIAA" filter works great.

Only problem is the too high output of the Ortofon cartridge that the Terratec card doesn't handle well. That is, the input (mainly in the high freq) is often peaking well above 0.0 dB causing distortion in the high end (noticeable in distorted high-hat sounds and in "S" sounds of vocalists). That distortion ofcourse is still there after the FFT (in CEP) RIAA filtering, making it sound less than optimal. Good enough to make an mp3 out of I guess but not optimal. Treble distortion really bothers me for some reason ;-)

I did some A/B listening between the FFT (in CEP) RIAA corrected sample and the record playing through the Terratec phono input with its software(?) RIAA correction enabled and I think the treble distortion shines through more on the version corrected with the FFT (in CEP) filter, but there is still some high end distortion with the Terratec RIAA filter enabled, prob due to the high output of the Ortofon. Too bad you can't attenuate the input phono signal below 0.0 dB in the Terratec control panel.

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

According to the Ortofon pro DJ cartridge spec I just looked at (these are high output), and the published spec for the phono input on the Terratec, (6mV, MM cartridge), they actually seem to be quite well matched, on the face of it. If you plug the cartridge into another device, does it sound okay?

Swede1 · Location: Sweden

I've recorded a whole bunch of vinyl before using the phono input of my NAD preamp, taking the "tape out" from the NAD into the line inputs of the Terratec and that produced far less distortion. In that case I had to boost the line input on the Terratec by about 6 dB to get a comfortably high signal (close to 0 dB peak on "the meters" in CEP).

Some dist may still be there depending on the recording, but I think I "tuned" some of that out by playing with the needle pressure and anti-skating force on the turntable. I wanted to try and see if going directly into the phono input on the Terratec would yield better quality, but so far I'm better off using the NAD preamps phono input for sound quality but the drawback is that I have to lug the whole computer into the room where the stereo equipment is...

drmengler · Posted - Sun Oct 13, 2002 11:02 am

Swede1 - regarding your Ortofon cart problem - I've just tried using the phono inputs on my Terratec for the first time, and I get exactly the same problem. Pretty much any record I put on ends up with the red lights being on in the 6fire mixer most of the time.

I also have an Ortofon cart in my record player (Project 1). Previously, like yourself, I've been using the tape outs on my NAD 304, and boosting the signal slightly.

I was disappointed to find that I couldn't use the dedicated phono input. I believe my Project 1 is set up right, I get a nice clean sound from it and I don't believe there's too much needle pressure.

Is the ortofon cart really producing too much signal for the terratec?

Swede1 · Location: Sweden

No, I don't think that the record player or its components are to blame in my (or your) case. I've discovered other strange things with the Terratec and its RIAA EQ and the phono inputs. I took a closer listen to the Terratec with the RIAA EQ enabled and I'm getting odd drop-outs and if another sound happens to play in the background (like an e-mail alert sound or ICQ alert or whatever) I suddenly get loads of echo, the signal sounds like it's in a bad echo chamber. Also I have a lot of "lag" on the RIAA enabled signal, lift the pickup from the record and sound stops a second or two later.

I'm going back to using my NAD amp phono in and then NAD's output into the line input of the Terratec until I hear from Terratec support.

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

The last three posts are quite revealing - I will definitely check with the nephew (when I can find him!) about the results he's got.

Andrew Rose · Location: United Kingdom

Carl-Axel · Location: Sweden

To avoid the clipping problem caused by the high output from my Ortofon and the fact that the input sensitivity of the 6fire cannot be reduced, I have attenuated the Ortofone with a 15k resistor in series with the signal path and a 100k in paralell with the phono input of the 6fire. This reduces the signal with approximately 3,5 dB and gives a perfect 47k load to the Ortofone, provided the input impedance of the 6fire (phono) really is 47k. No more clipping.

If the signal should be too week on some tracks, you could use the "up to 18 dB amplification" available on the input of the card/or take out the attenuator.

On the other hand........one could just ask if thats the way sound cards shall be made work correctly. At least the 6fire has a very low noise level and an excellent frequency response.

/Carl-Axel

Swede1 · Location: Sweden

Ok, to kinda bring this back to a CEP topic I discovered the following today: The Terratec RIAA seems to work fine (no sound drop outs, and no exessive peak signal) BEFORE CEP is started up.

I had a record playing with the Terratec RIAA enabled and everything sounded fine, I then started up CEP and suddenly the RIAA eq filtering disappeared from the signal. It is still "enabled" in the Terratec control panel but is obviously "turned off" by the sound of it. Clicking the RIAA button twice will enable it again but now with the notorious drop outs and peak levels too high in the signal again and ofcourse you can't record anything in CEP (see original post).

Shutting down CEP leaves the Terratec in this state (which is why I've never caught onto this before I guess).

The question is: What happens during CEP start-up that would mess with the Terratec software ? Or if you turn it around Wink

, why doesn't Terratec software handle CEP properly ?

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

So I checked out the nephew's system details last night, and I discovered the following:

He's been using an Ortofon OM10 cartridge with the 6-Fire with no problems at all. The OS? Windows 2000. But his father pointed out that on the Terratec drivers page there is a RIAA update patch. Has anybody installed this, and does it make any difference?

Swede1 · Location: Sweden

Figured I'd relay the reply I (finally) got from Terratec customer support. Makes you wonder why they put phono inputs on the card to begin with. I quote:

"Hello,
when recording, the RIAA has to be shut of in the control panel. This one is just to monitor a LP (only then the RIAA should be on).
If you need the RIAA plug in , use this one in the application where you record."

In other words, the phono inputs are useless when you want to record the signal with RIAA eq on. Why would I buy a soundcard with phono inputs just to "monitor" ?

The Terratec goes out the window now, and I'm soliciting replacement suggestions (a soundcard with working phono (and RIAA) inputs)!

Swede1

Havoc · Posted - Thu Nov 14, 2002 1:38 pm

Wouldn't it be easier to find a small riaa preamp? The terratec is a good card according to all I read about it.

AndyH · Posted - Thu Nov 14, 2002 4:04 pm

I too think looking for a card with the phono preamp built in is a poor way to go. Looking around a bit, one soon realizes that the LP phono preamp concept can get rather involved. There are many possibilities that are not going to be available in a soundcard.

I don't think that providing the basic RIAA equalization is any major part of it, that is fairly straight forward. Rather it is the overall tonal result that varies from preamp to preamp, rather like the culture of microphone preamps. It is most surely true that the differences between the $25 preamp and the $80,000 preamp are not proportional to the price difference, but there is much less freedom of choice if the phono preamp (low end, without a doubt) is built into the card. This restriction hardly seems to be compensated by any convenience factor (doesn't really seem, to me, to be any special convenience in the all in one product).

Swede1 · Location: Sweden

I agree, and maybe that's what I'll do. Having recorded through my NAD pre-amp into the line-inputs on the Terratec works just super.

But the point is that it's not such a big deal to put a functioning (hardware) RIAA circuit on a soundcard. I never saw anything in any marketing fluff from Terratec that you couldn't RECORD using the phono input (which you CAN, but without the RIAA eq). If you buy any modern stereo equipment and it has a phono input, you don't have to do the RIAA eq after the fact if you are recording from vinyl to tape or casette.

Terratec has provided a product that's not 100% up to par in my opinion. Had I known when I bought the card that the phono input was for "monitoring" only and that you couldn't record (with RIAA eq), I would have NOT bought it!

And one thing that the Terratec support missed, even if you are just "monitoring" your record player with the RIAA eq enabled, just starting up CEP or just accessing the device manager in windows control panel will throw the RIAA software eq all out of whack with horrible audible results. Not even their "phono-RIAA-eq-monitoring" function in software works ok.

Havoc · Posted - Fri Nov 15, 2002 1:30 pm

Well, honesty and technical knowledge/exactitude are not marketing virtues.