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JoyfulNois
Posts: 71
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 Posted - Thu Sep 05, 2002 7:25 pm
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I would like to get some suggestions for an effective headphone mix solution.
I have a small studio that I just completed construction on (still pulling splinters from my fingers:)). I am quite pleased with the acoustics and the hardware set up, but I struggle with the right setup for headphone feed to the recording room.
Currently I have an Alesis studio 24 which has inline monitoring. It also has 8 direct outs and 8 direct returns. Each direct out goes to an input on a Layla 20. Each out (1-8 that is) from Layla goes to the corresponding direct return on the mixer. With this set up the out is controlled by the channel fader and the return is present at the moitor send of the same channel.
I currently have each Layla input monitored only by the cooresponding output (input 1/2 is at full volume at output 1/2 etc.). I can then adjust the monitor send for each channel at the mixer. This gives me one mix that consists of what is going into Layla. Any playback tracks are summed to Layla outputs 9/10 - to a mixer stereo in and sent to the monitor mix. This mix is sent to a rack mount headphone amp in the recording room.
I have trouble knowing what mix is getting to the performers since i usually use monitor speakers in the control room and the headphones I have in the control room come from the mixer not the headphone amp. I am also using a cheap cordles mic as a talkback mic.
I am considering one of a couple of things.
1) purchase a headphone distribution system with minimixers for each performer and possibly another layla to send the cue mixes from. (expensive solution)
2) Modify the routing/ setup to be able to better set up the mix in the headphones. Maybe a bettter talkback mic, another headphone amp so I can monitor off of it or something like that (less expensive, but leaves me with only one headphone mix for everyone).
I should say that I rarely record more than one or two persons at a time but I want a set up I don't have to reconfigure all the time.
Any suggestions would be welcomed.
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jonrose
Location: USA
Posts: 2901
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Posted - Thu Sep 05, 2002 7:58 pm
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Hi JoyfulNois,
I guess my question would be...
Do you end up ultimately mixing on the Alesis, or do you mix in Cool Edit?
Here's one possiblity:
If you mix in Cool Edit, lose the connections back to the Alesis from the Layla outs. Buy a headphone amplifier (around $150 US), and drive that, instead, for your talent. And yourself, too, for that matter.
As an example, I use the Rolls RA62's - each unit will drive six headsets, outputting either what's coming into its main inputs or whatever you want send into each headset's insert jack.
Cue mixes can then be done from the computer in conjunction with your Layla mixer (in your case, as many as five discrete, stereo cue mixes, 10 mono cue mixes, or a mixture). In a lot of cases, you'll have to copy some tracks in Cool Edit to be able assign them to more than one output, so this may or may not be something that appeals to you. It can be a little more complicated to manage the ins and outs in a larger session.
Anyway, it's just another possibility, but it won't break the bank, either!
Best... -Jon
Edited by - jonrose on 09/05/2002 8:03:28 PM
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JoyfulNois
Posts: 71
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Posted - Thu Sep 05, 2002 8:50 pm
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Thanks Jon, That is one thing that occurred to me after I posted this. I do all of my mixing with CEP. The headphone amp that I have is the Rolls RA62. I guess that only reason I send the outs back to the mixers is because that is what I did before I had a headphone amp.
I will give it some thought, but your idea sounds good at first glance. Of course I will need a new snake since the one that I currently use from Layal ends in RCA plugs since that is what the mixer requires. The rolls on the other hand has 1/4" inputs.
Well thanks for the idea.
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Graeme
Member
Location: Spain
Posts: 4663
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Posted - Thu Sep 05, 2002 9:04 pm
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I fail to understand the problem. The mixer has two pre-fade aux sends - these are what you should be using to set up one (or two) monitor mixes. Presumably, the aux sends can be solo'd - if they can't then you should consider another mixer, since your mixer is the nerve centre of the control room and you must be able to control all these sort of functions with it.
The headphone mix is setup on one of these aux sends - the output of the aux goes to the heaphone amp. If you want to listen to the mix, just solo (AFL) the aux send in use. If you need an even better idea of what the artist is hearing, plug a pair of cans into the desk and listen to those - that way you have exactly the same listening environment as the artist/s - but this really isn't necessary.
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JoyfulNois
Posts: 71
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Posted - Fri Sep 06, 2002 2:33 pm
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Graeme, I don't know if my description was adequate, but the method you described is the way I currently have it set up.
My concern is this. In my last session I had complaints about the headphone mix. One singer complained of not hearing herself well enough while another singer could not harmonize because she could not hear everyone else well enough. I must admit that the next day when I recorded myself, made mix adjustments after I put on the headphones, even though everything had sounded fine through the monitors.
I have read some articles advocating a different mix for different musicians. I am simply not sure if that is necessary.
Can I conclude from what you said that you don't run different "taylored" headphone mixes for individual musicians?
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jonrose
Location: USA
Posts: 2901
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Posted - Fri Sep 06, 2002 3:06 pm
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[personal opinion mode]
Just one more thought...
And this may seem a bit overboard, but in my opinion, I don't think so....
I spend a good deal of time setting up cue mixes because I firmly believe that a performer will not execute their best performance under less than ideal conditions. Period.
This includes having a cue mix that pleases the player/singer, is fairly representative of how they envision the song should sound (whether it eventually gets produced and mixed that way or not), and is capable of giving them everything they need to hear.
I think a cue mix should include any kind of cues or ambience the performer needs to do a good job, whether this means hearing certain parts, effecting other parts (or their own, of course) to produce a temporal change in what they're hearing, or whatever else the situation might dictate. I have no problem with routing components of their cue mix through some outboard devices to get there. You just do what it takes to make them happy. And they'll do a better job, so you can get on with doing the rest of yours.
[/ personal opinion mode]
:)
Best... -Jon
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Graeme
Member
Location: Spain
Posts: 4663
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Posted - Fri Sep 06, 2002 5:01 pm
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| Quote: |
| Graeme, I don't know if my description was adequate, but the method you described is the way I currently have it set up. |
Fair enough - from the original description given, I didn't see any reference to setting up the heaphone sends via the aux's. If that's what you are doing, then we're fine so far.
| Quote: |
| My concern is this. In my last session I had complaints about the headphone mix. One singer complained of not hearing herself well enough while another singer could not harmonize because she could not hear everyone else well enough. I must admit that the next day when I recorded myself, made mix adjustments after I put on the headphones, even though everything had sounded fine through the monitors. |
My experience is that it is very hard to please everyone with the can mix. Different musicians/instruments do like to hear different things and achieving a balance which will suit everyone at the same time is not easy (and sometimes impossible). Unfortunately, the only way to achieve this is to let everyone mix their own - but, as you have already found out, this is not a cheap option.
You could, perhaps, consider two independent mixes - which would require a second headphone amp. This should take care of 95% of the requirement. Any more than this and you are into a different ballgame altogether.
As for judging the can mix via the monitors, I guess this is something which you gain with experience. The musicians will soon tell you if they are not hearing something properly. It's a bit like a foldback mix in a live situation - you can't really monitor it accurately yourself and you have to rely on feedback from the people who are actually using it.
You may find it more useful to use a pair of cans yourself when setting the mix. That way you are hearing what they are hearing. However, you are not sitting next to the instrument/amplifier the way the performer is, so you still are not really hearing what they are.
| Quote: |
| I have read some articles advocating a different mix for different musicians. I am simply not sure if that is necessary. |
Allowing the perfomers to 'roll their own' is really nice and absolves the engineer of all responsibility, but it does mean you have to provide individual foldback feeds for each channel in use - and this can get pretty expensive, to say the least.
| Quote: |
| Can I conclude from what you said that you don't run different "taylored" headphone mixes for individual musicians? |
These days, I don't need to do any of this sort of thing, the only musician involved is me! I have worked with all sorts of systems in the past, from the simple 'one fits all' to full blown, multi-channel, foldback, where the performers had complete control over what they wanted to hear.
The latter system, while very nice, is a bit beyond the reach of most studios and certainly studios built on a low budget. I think the best that is affordably achievable is two separate mixes. One will be for the drummer, the other can be made to suit everybody else.
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jonrose
Location: USA
Posts: 2901
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Posted - Fri Sep 06, 2002 7:54 pm
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| Quote: |
| You could, perhaps, consider two independent mixes - which would require a second headphone amp. This should take care of 95% of the requirement. Any more than this and you are into a different ballgame altogether. -Graeme |
Fortunately he's running the same headphone amp I am - and the Rolls is quite capable of accepting inserts for each headset (you can have six different, stereo mixes for six people, if you like - and his Layla has enough outs to make up a few, at the least). That's kind of why I steered him in the direction I use in our studio - it won't cost him anything except some setup time.
:)
Best... -Jon
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JoyfulNois
Posts: 71
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Posted - Fri Sep 06, 2002 8:42 pm
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Thank you both for the help. All I need to do now is look at everything to make sure I can still get the outboard equipment into the mix if I run all of the Rolls inserts from the Layla outputs.
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jonrose
Location: USA
Posts: 2901
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Posted - Fri Sep 06, 2002 10:18 pm
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Well, maybe just use only as many as you need to.... I probably shouldn't have said "lose the connections back to the Alesis" before. And in retrospect, I really meant only to imply a different thought process while dealing with the issue.
So.... Less is more, sometimes, and a good general cue mix may satisfy more than one player/singer, so you could just leave that one on the Rolls' main inputs, and use some of the Rolls' inserts for different cue mixes (for picky performers).
:)
Best... -Jon
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Headphone mix ideas??
