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Creative$ · Location: USA

Can I please get opinions on burning software?

I have heard great things about Exact Audio Copy on this forum (www.exactaudiocopy.de) for reliable burning, ripping and creating disk images, but usually that's from audiophiles, it seems, who have the head for the complex settings that need to be addressed (www.r3mix.net/ and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eac/), which I don't have going for me.

I have also heard that, other than EAC, Nero is reputed as being the best and most reliable, although I'm told it can also be cumbersome on the learning curve and has poor instructions.

Easy CD Creator has done decently for me but seems to be less than reliable. (It recently said it burned a CD okay but on playback it had intolerable gaps, which I've heard it can tend to do sometimes, much more so than Nero I'm told.)

I don't have any fancy needs. I just want to copy CDs to a disk image, and to burn CDs either from wave files or disk image. Period. (Oh, I may need to rip a CD once in my life.)

And I'd just LOVE to have the program tell me if it had burn problems (even gaps), rather than have it say it did a successful burn just to find out on listening that there were gaps in it.

I'm doing this for business purposes, working mainly with speech, so quality really matters.

I'm wondering if users would be so kind as to weigh in between Nero and EAC (etc).

Thanks a million!

Edited by - Creative$ on 06/04/2002 8:36:03 PM

Rabban · Posted - Tue Jun 04, 2002 8:35 pm

Another burning app that I now use for audio (I used it to replace Nero because, in some instances, Nero was too limiting) is the superb Feurio (http://www.feurio.com/English/index.shtml)

Cheers

Edited by - Rabban on 06/04/2002 8:36:07 PM

beetle · Location: USA

What kind of gaps are you talking about? Are they split second or are they the two-second gaps between tracks?

In any case, you should always have other programs in the background turned off. If you leave them on, like antivirus apps or are on a network, you may get disruptions on your burns. You should not be doing anything while burning your CD.

Rabban · Posted - Wed Jun 05, 2002 1:39 am

I can't speak for Creative$ but I have run into the gap problem in Nero. Despite the fact that you can select 0 second gap between songs, I have found on every occasion (on my setup at least, with almost no programs running in the background), Nero will, in fact, insert a single frame per second (fps) filled with all zeros (empty samples). Despite the fact that there are 75 fps, there is still an audible click between tracks (a single frame with up to 588 empty samples can still create an audible click/pop) if the two tracks do not fade in/out to silence. For instance, a live recording where one song continues straight into another song without pause or silence, that is when I hear the pop of the single fps that is filled with empty samples.

I would even make sure in Cool Edit Pro that I was snapping all songs to the proper frame boundary. I could see Nero adding an audible pop if a song ended part way through a single frame, since the burning app would fill in the rest of the frame with empty samples until the next song started on a proper frame boundary. But I do not know why Nero will automatically insert a single frame of 588 empty samples between two songs which fall on proper frame boundaries?

Despite this limitation of Nero (or maybe it is my setup?), I have found Feurio an excellent choice because it has the option to add the two second gap (or any number of seconds you need), or have gapless recording whereby the burning app will fill up the rest of a frame with empty samples (zeros) if a song does not end on a proper frame boundary (this will force the next track to start on a frame boundary), or (and this is the feature I love), have gapless recording whereby Feurio will start a track immediately after another WITHOUT inserting empty samples.

I have no experience with CDRWin but some friends of mine claim that it can also burn tracks without adding empty samples if a song does not start or end on a frame boundary.

Edited by - Rabban on 06/05/2002 01:40:34 AM

Nobby · Posted - Wed Jun 05, 2002 2:23 am

For info:

I've burn around 200 CD's with EAC and probably more with Nero and have never had a problem with either.
I usually use EAC for one or two track CD's. For full compilations I use Nero as it's easier to move files around.

If I'm copying vinyl to CD - I usually create a cue sheet with CD Wave and then import the cue sheet to EAC for the burn.

Not sure wether the laser calibration test at the beginning of an EAC burn is relevant - anyone?

Currently using EAC Beta9v4 and Nero 5582 with Teac 56 6X SCSI Burner. (Old, slow and clearly reliable!!)

I've also burned around five CD's with the Cool plugin and everything seems fine!

Regards,

N

Edited by - Nobby on 06/05/2002 02:30:22 AM

Edited by - Nobby on 06/05/2002 02:33:39 AM

beetle · Location: USA

Hmmm, i've never experienced this problem with any CD burning software or any burner i've ever used on any computer.

Creative$ · Location: USA

The problem with gaps that I got was not between tracks or songs. I was burning just one single wave file that consisted purely of speech. The gaps were breaks in the middle of words, randomly distributed as far as I could tell. The speech would just cut in and out. Most of it was there, but there were enough gaps to make it entirely unacceptable to distribute. You'd lose the better part of a word.

I think this might have been caused by the fact that I had applied an adhesive label to the media before burning. I've since been told my Plextor that it's 100 times more likely for a label to cause a burn problem if applied before burning than it is for a label to cause a problem on playing the CD after it's been burned. I don't know what else to attribute it to.

mixman · Location: United Kingdom

Your problem with skipping and cutting-out in the words sounds more like a digital recording error and this could be caused by many things. It's not just the labels you need to consider.

It could be something to do with the labels - and you should apply them after burning if you are going to use them. But many CDr manufacturers advise against the use of labels and it is much less risky to use special marker pens to write on the disc and put your full track info on the inlay card. A friend sent me a CDr which would not play properly at all (it had the cut-out effect you describe) until the label he had put on it was removed. The age and quality of the CD player is also a factor, as some earlier or cheaper models will not accept all CDrs easily.

Make sure you use high-quality CDrs, not the ultra-cheap ones. The cheap discs are okay for recording data, but not for audio. You'll also need discs that are compatible with your burner. Trial and error is the only real way to establish these things - seems expensive but ultimately worthwhile. I've found TDK discs are great for audio, someone else I know swears by Mitsui. And the "audio-only" discs (intended for use in stand-alone hi-fi CD recorders, but accepted by computer burners too) should be fine, whatever the make.

The speed at which you are burning could also be a factor. Generally, lower speeds produce fewer errors and many say audio should only be burned at 1 X speed, or 2 X speed, though opinions and the advice of CDr and burner manufacturers differ here.

I would advise you to try a high-quality CDr, a low burn rate and - if you really must apply labels - putting them on last! Also, try the CDr in different playback devices (hi-fi CDplayer, car CDplayer, computer CDplayer, other people's CDplayers) to see if it's the device at fault.
Also, you might consider re-installing your CD burning software, or making sure you have the latest version and upgrade.

Creative$ · Location: USA

Mixman, I appreciate your comments very much.

My system is a P3-500 256 RAM. The drive is the new Plextor 40/12/40A internal. The media is actually one of the only two that Plextor lists on their "compatibility list" as having been tested to their satisfaction, Verbatim 32x (Mitsubishi makes and owns Verbatim).

By the way, as an FYI, Plextor says their compatibility list is partly due to testing for "consistency" and reliability, and partly has to do with the fact that their drive's firmware contains details about a few certain brands and speed-rating specs of certain media, and if the drive sees that it's one of those particular media it will know how to burn it optimally. The tech wasn't sure if the firmware's list is identical to the compatible list on their web site or if it has more. (You can upgrade the firmware in the Plextor drive periodically via their web site, which seems advisable under the circumstances -- just download and launch the executable. They just added support for the Mitsui 40x media to it, for example.) Now, this does NOT mean that any other good media won't do just as fine a job. They say only that the drive may need to take a bit longer ("possibly only seconds or milliseconds!") to feel out the media! Thus, I'm really not sure what their compatibility list or firmware list really means (or why names like TDK aren't on there, when one of their techs highly recommends it).

When I had the gaps occur, the burn speed was set to "auto". I never know what I'm getting in that case. If I use the Plextor burning software that came with the drive, it usually says it's burning at 16x. If I use Easy CD Creator, it says 40x, but Plextor says the drive can never burn audio faster than 24x, so who knows? I used the same Plextor drive for playing it back, with Windows Media Player, when I heard the gaps.

The idea of burning at slow speeds is very challenging for me to swallow. I have a small business and no dedicated computer to assign to the task of burning to. I bought the best and fasted drive I could so I could SAVE TIME! Now, even with a Plextor 40x drive, the best media, all the burn-proof and buffer under-run protection I made sure to get, I'm finding that I'm still being told to burn at slow speeds and to avoid any multitasking whatsoever! Whew! Plextor's techs, depending who I talk to, say you "should" be okay at the higher burn speeds with audio (and that's generally been my experience), but IF you have problems, go down to, oh, 16x or, according to the other tech, maybe 8x. Yet another of their techs says it really should not matter with a good system and good media, except that it might not play well on some very old CD players unless you burn at a slower speed. They also say you should be able to multitask as long "as the buffer doesn't drop to zero". Well, it pops up and down so fast there's no way to be sure even when you watch it. I'd like to think the fact that it severely slows down other applications means it's giving system resource priority to the burn to avoid letting the buffer drop to zero.

What the heck are burn-proof and buffer under-run protection for, anyway?

I've never had a problem before with this system, after burning a few dozen data and audio CDs, except once when the Plextor burning software reported errors after the burn (man, I just LOVE the idea that the software will at least TELL YOU when it doesn't burn correctly!), and that was using the Verbatim media. I'm actually mostly using TDK 32x media, but in those two cases where I had problems, it was both with the Verbatim 32x media.

By the way, everyone I've ever asked has always said that the "audio only" CD labeling scheme is strictly a marketing ploy and that the CDs are IDENTICAL to the "regular" ones.

Thanks again!

AndyH · Posted - Wed Jun 05, 2002 10:18 pm

You will find a much previously written in this forum about CDR writing speeds; there is much detail about what I am summarizing here. Some people do hold to the 1X or 2X ideal, but technology does not seem to support that. The drives are supposed to be able to test the media to determine the optimum writing speed, and that means the speed for the best results.

The only published tests I have seen recorded fewer errors as writing speeds increased, for every drive and every brand of media tested. However, at least in this case, the number of errors at any speed was insignificant from the viewpoint of audio quality -- they all had fewer errors than "premium" commercial CDs.

Stand-alond CD recorders are the intended receipents of the "audio only" CDRs. These CDRs have some data pre-written in a header that tells the recorder it is allowable to write on them. This is to prevent less expensive CDRs, the ones without the special media tax, from being used. The audio only CDR are indeed identical to any other when used on a computer. I have also heard rumors that newer CD recorders no longer have this restriction, so the audio only designation is no longer valid in that case either.

beetle · Location: USA

One should never apply a label before burning.

TDK quality is all over the map ever since they started contracting out to OEM manufacturers like Ritek. I stick to Mitsui, Sony, and to the rest of the Kodack I have in stock. Imation also is a winner in my book.

A CD burner should automatically calibrate it's laser to the blank in question. Using almost any quality blank should not be a problem. Just stay away from the cheapies.

Evidence suggests that burning at HIGHER speeds produces lower block-error rates on a CD-R. Some older players have trouble playing CD-s burned at 1x. I personally have a higher failure rate for CDs burned at 1x. Some newer models can't even burn properly at 1x!

Burn-proof technology works by taking the laser back to the same point where it was interrupted. This is NOT red-book standard, folks! It is merely a convenience for those who have unstable machines or just can't seem to keep themselves off the computer until the disc is burned. Ideally, one should not use the burn-proof option if they want a good, red-book burn.

Creative$$, if you really need to work on the PC while you burn your discs, consider going SCSSI, using a dedicated PC, or hiring someone to do the duplicating for you.

Next...

Edited by - beetle on 06/06/2002 01:49:56 AM

ozpeter · Location: Australia

I find these days that I spend much more time on preparing inserts for the jewel cases (and persuading my elderly printer to be so kind as to print them) than I spend on burning the CDs to go in them!

The only trouble I have with Nero is that from time to time it doesn't progress from burning the lead-in to burning the tracks - just sits there counting time at 3 or 4%. This hangs the whole system, requiring reset, scandisk, etc etc (thus giving time for tea....). Anyone else had this problem?

HairWasHere · Location: USA

HairWasHere · Location: USA

Freak Of N · Posted - Mon Jul 22, 2002 7:24 pm

I've used both Nero and Easy CD Creator. I hate Easy CD Creator the program screws up too much. Bought Nero and had no problems at all.

The only problem I had with Nero was my brother's 4x USB Iomega external CD Writer was putting more into the buffer than the writer could handle and it would abort the CD Burning process. We tried drivers and a couple of other things but nothing worked. So we tried having him burn at 2x instead and he has been burning CD's fine ever since it just goes a little slower. Not sure if the prob was related to Nero or not but it did work ok in Easy CD 4.0. Other issues may have been a factor new hard drive, more ram, a general system upgrade.

I like Nero much more than Easy CD. I like the built in wave editor. I like that you can make VCD's. And it does seem to be alot more stable than Easy CD Creator.

post78 · Location: USA

I've had a couple of problems with EZCD not finding a disk, but never had a problem while burning. I've been using it (5 platinum) for at least 6 months now, and can't complain. What exactly is it about Nero that makes it so much better? I'm talking about simple burning needs, not extras.

Freak Of N · Posted - Mon Jul 22, 2002 8:36 pm

I was using Easy CD 4 so I may not be the most valuable person to compare to. It wasn't necessarily the burned product that was an issue. It was the program interface that would
crash on me all the time.

So I uninstalled. And tried to reload. The program came up but it wouldn't recognize my cd-writer. Windows saw it, all of my other programs saw it but Easy CD said I had no burner. I did everything I could think of to get it to work. Clean installs, new drivers the whole nine yards and nothing worked. So I finally, got po'd and bought Nero.

I like the interface better. It has more diversity in what it can do. Nero has a speed test that you can run to be sure everything is smooth before you burn. And tech people tell me it has some of the best error correction software for burning you can find. Besides after everything I tried to do to get that stupid program running again. I never wanted to see Easy CD Creator ever again.

mjb · Posted - Tue Jul 23, 2002 12:59 am

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

BURN-proof doesn't write a load of errors - since the whole thing uses a read-ahead system there is absolutely no need for this, as a laser can be turned off, or have its power level changed in a minute fraction of the time that it takes to write even the smallest pit! In fact, the laser is stopped even before the buffer is emptied, and it waits until there is a sufficient data level until it restarts.

THe problem usually comes from the fact that due to one or two limitations in the nature of semiconductor lasers, you are likely to get excess dye splutter at the changeover point, and that is where the errors will occur. The problem is that the laser has to be switched instantaneously from read power to write power, with the correct write power level immediately, and this isn't always as successful as it should be... *

The problem with running the Plextor under 'auto' is that the proprietry version of BURN that Plextor uses will periodically stop the drive, and test to see if it can increase the speed. This on its own could cause the 'frame full of zeros' problem. I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

York Audio · Posted - Tue Jul 23, 2002 2:51 am

I'll just jump in here and say that I really cannot understand the problems people have with buring CD's.
Like Creative$ I work mainly with spoken word.

I use a TDK Cyclone and NERO and have burnt loads of CD's that are in Museums and Galleries around the globe playing without any problems at all.
I use bulk purchase blanks.

However I don't apply labels, I use a TDK pen, I burn at 4X and no higher, I have Burn Proof enabled and I don't touch the PC while its doing its stuff, not even moving the mouse.

For copies of CD's for playing in my car I often burn at 12X again on bulk blanks and they play just dandy, even in the auto-changer bouncing around in the boot!

ozpeter · Location: Australia

I recall Nero giving me a warning message once that burn-proof had been triggered during the burn. I guess if it does report it one could safely use it, and then decide whether to ditch the CD if it was for mission-critical use.

tellysurv · Posted - Tue Jul 23, 2002 10:24 am

Another program to look into is "CloneCD". Its super easy to use and writes and read image files. I burned a certain Beatles CD that has tracks running into each other with no problem whatsoever. This program also will copy Multimedia CD's, CD-ROMs and data CD's with no problems.
I also use Nero with my Yamaha CD Writer and have had no problems with it. CloneCD is easier to use though. The only thing I cant figure out how to do on Nero is rip songs off a CD. Anyone have any ideas how to do that using Nero?
Chris

Edited by - tellysurv on 07/23/2002 10:25:44 AM

khoisanx · Posted - Tue Jul 23, 2002 1:48 pm

ozpeter · Location: Australia

Designity · Posted - Tue Jul 23, 2002 6:19 pm

The only thing I cant figure out how to do on Nero is rip songs off a CD. Anyone have any ideas how to do that using Nero?

Designity · Posted - Tue Jul 23, 2002 6:32 pm

Well... with Nero opened go to >Recorder >Save Track, Choose Extractor (CD-DVD Player or CDBurner), Path, Codec, etc. It also support CDDB and TAG posting.

By the main topic I use to write CD´s with Nero and CloneCD with great results. I think EasyCDCreator uses a big amount of hard disk space, but its easy to handle if you are not familiarize with cd burners.

Talué!

tellysurv · Posted - Tue Jul 23, 2002 7:15 pm

Hey Designity,
Thanks for the tip. I feel like a fool! I never even saw that recorder tab! I tried to use the help feature in Nero but it wouldnt tell me what I wanted to know. Anyway, thanks for the help. I usually use the ripper in Cool Edit but sometimes it doesnt work right...
Chris

Andrew Rose · Location: United Kingdom

As far as errors are concerned with Burn-proof, I use a PlexWriter 12/10/32A at the BBC to burn inserts for our programmes. These are onto unbranded discs which are of a reasonable quality and seem to cause no problems. Not only is burn-proof enabled, but for a variety of reasons it's usually invoked once or twice on the final programme disc.

This CD is then played out on a Studer D730 professional CD player which tells you every time it finds an error which it's correcting. I can't remember the last time I saw it do this. I'm not claiming to be any kind of expert in how burn-proof technology works, all I know is I don't see the errors that some suggest ought to be being inserted when the recorder slips out of record mode - and I know (from bitter experience) that every error is picked up and highlighted on the display as it goes through and is corrected...

Rod · Location: USA

I feel sorry for people who have paid $100 for that Easy CD creator program. I consider it bloatware, and far inferior to NERO. I can burn Super VCDs with Nero, and it has the best MPEG II encoder (sold seperately) I have used, even compared to the one in my Vegas Video 3.0c... It also supports mp3PRO (encoder sold seperately), so if you have files made with CEP 2.0 you can burn audio CDs with the proper response (if you wanted to do such a thing). Other programs will not decode the highs. NERO also has a WAVE editor that takes zero time to process anything. It does not do what Cool Edit can do, but for simple tasks it's a real time saver. Cool Edit Pro and NERO are a great compliment to each other. That's what I use, and don't plan on switching because I'm very satisfied. Rod

post78 · Location: USA

ONE HUNDRED DOLLARS!!! I too feel sorry for people that spend that much, and you for shopping there. I spent $50 in a retail store.

Creative$ · Location: USA

I've learned that it's virtually pointless with my P-III/500 256 RAM machine to try to work while burning anyway... all else slows to less than a crawl (and some programs even freeze).

I've just spent an enormous amount of time lately with emails back and forth to someone in the "engineering" dept at Plextor... after tech support just couldn't help me with the basic issue of understanding how to determine if blank media I might want to buy is going to be supported well by the drive. The Plextor 401240A drive has firmware that lists various versions of most major media and tells it how fast to burn it at and other write-optimization strategies. I had bought Taiyo Yuden media from Media Supply off the Internet that Media Supply's web site said was "32x certified" and then learned that the Plextor's 401240A firmware knows that this particular version of TY media is their original, oldest type and it will only burn it at 16x speed! I've seen error-rate graphics from Plextor that indicate it blows other desktop burners away big-time... although this idea of the model being discontinued sure has raised my eyebrows.

By the way, in order to maintain maximum reliability in burning audio, this drive will NEVER burn audio any faster than 24x, which Plextor makes very clear on their web site.

One thing I like is that Plextor is actually making a serious attempt to test and rate the mass of different media out there and is telling their drive through the firmware how to utilize it. If nothing else, this probably helps give all of us a little more insight into comparing media. I did get from the engineer that it's a matter of how fast they can burn at optimal reliability, and that if you're not really concerned with near-perfect audio (and don't care much about the speed limitations that their firmware will invoke when burning lesser rated media), any decent media will do just fine in most cases.

The engineer also told me that in his own testing, what gave the most reliable burns of all was Verbatim (which version????) media at 16x speed.

I can forward some of the emails from the engineer on how the drive does what it does if anyone wants to email me for it. In a nutshell, the media that it likes and supports best are:

TDK "branded" and "retail packaged" CD-Rs certified at 32x (the drive supports them at 40x)

Verbatim across the board (which is Mitsubishi Chemical's brand, by the way) but especially those of the HGX and HG types (respectively supported at 40x and 32x by the drive)

Taiyo Yuden of the DX and XX types (respectively supported at 40x and 32x by the drive)

Maxell across the board at at least the ratings that their web site (www.maxell-data.com) says they're certified at and sometimes better than what the packaging indicates

Mitsui under certain limited specs (not sure what they are)

The HUGE problem is that there's virtually no way at present to know what media matches an of those specs except TDK retail packaged for 32x or Maxell which gives thorough lists. It's essentially impossible to match any of the information on the Plextor compatibility list for this drive on their web site with any media you might want to buy. Item numbers in various types of packaging vary like wild and there's essentially no way to know what you're getting.

I suspect Verbatim possibly has consumer packaged media that indicates HGX or HG, but I haven't seen it anywhere.

Otherwise, to know if any bulk disk (or any Verbatim?) is of the above types you have to have something that does what the Plextor software does, which is give you, on the Properties display for the drive, a Details tab that will give you very specific details about the media (which is the same set of details the firmware uses to decide the write speed and strategy). Even then, you'd first need to know the info above that I only got from the engineer -- none of that is on the Plextor web site.

The Plextor engineer was very accommodating in helping me to understand and work through all of this, and told me he's using the thread we created with our emails between us as a basis for making sure the company clarifies this confusion for their customers ASAP.

So, the drive is discontinued??? Maybe that's why they haven’t been more clear and thorough in what they list on their web site for compatible media for the drive!?!? (Just speculating.)

Khoisanx, are you SURE it's discontinued? If you go to www.plextor.com, they have yet another award to promote it on the home page. It just won the World Class Award from PC World a few months ago. Consistency is one of their testing criteria for this award. (I myself have never encountered any of those "gaps" again since burning that one disk to which I had applied a label before burning, which I've since learned you should NEVER do. The software didn't like the disk on my first attempt to burn it, and only burned it on a retry.)

jamesp · Posted - Wed Aug 07, 2002 10:06 am

The PX4012 is still a current model. If you want the ultimate control over audio CD burning quality then you could always mess around with the VariRec feature although, in my tests, the differences it made were very small.

Plextor Europe supply a very neat utility called Plextools which handles CD Copying, media identification and even error checking. There is an upgrade version at http://www.plextor.be which will allow you to upgrade from certain versions of Plextor Manager. If you are considering Exact Audio Copy then I would highly recommend that you look at Plextools. Feurio and CDRWin are the two other programs that I use for serious audio work.

Cheers.

James.

Creative$ · Location: USA

I just got this via email from a senior engineer at Plextor about the 4012A (also called 40/12/40A):

"In reference to this specific drive model being discontinued; our current road map has this drive still being produced into early next year. Could be longer. To be sure we will release faster drives before the end of the year but that doesn't kill everything before it. We still produce 8/8/24 drives even though we are about to release a 48X drive. As for skips being in recordings, there have not been any issues related to such symptoms for your drive even in the development stage. Media and application errors account for the majority of such symptoms traditionally."

And I myself want to reiterate that that gaps problem only happened ONCE and was with a media I had LABELED BEFORE BURNING (which I've since learned is an unequivocal "no-no"), and that the software DIDN'T LIKE this prelabeled CD on my initial attempt to burn to it.

Edited by - Creative$ on 08/09/2002 5:19:50 PM