Syntrillium Backup Forums :: View topic

Lorisha · Location: France

How can i give that cher's belive song ....metallic effect in the end of each line ...errr.....anyway you know !!! what i mean
well...
I just ......bought ...Cooldeit Pro 2.o ...and it is awesome ....i can even manipulate video ...now ...any one know ...something ....that i should know about it !!!
and ....that metallic effect please

HanzZ · Location: Netherlands

Hi and welcome, make yourself at home...

the Cher-effect is an autotune effect. There are some pretty good plugins out there for this (Antarres Autotune for example), it's not built in CEP. The same sort of effect can probably be achieved with some subtle vocoding (CEP has a vocoder function in Multitrack View).

As for the rest of your post, if you stick around on this forum and read everything; you'll learn a lot. Also, take a look at the brand new Tips&Tricks category under All Forums. A lot of good tips & tricks there.

-- HanzZ

Edited by - HanzZ on 05/04/2002 02:45:37 AM

VoodooRadio · Location: USA

Hi Lorisha,
Welcome aboard. The Cher effect is indeed a Vocoder and with some experimentation you might get the same effect using CEP's. As for "anyone know something I should know about".... the advise I give is to read, read, read. Read the manual (use a highlighter and mark things), watch the tutorials that came on you program disk, download any tutorials from the site that you don't have, make checking the forum part of your daily "computer routine, and if at all possible.... spend a little time each session, going through the help files and learning. I realize that when someone sits down to work on a recording/loop/voice-over etc... that they probably didn't intend to do anything but that, however, if you start a regiment of doing so, you will tackle the "learning curve" alot faster and time will come when you won't need to. Good Luck Voodoo

Graeme · Member Location: Spain

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

Graeme's quite correct - Cher's 'I Believe' was done on the the hardware version of Autotune, all put together on an original Mackie 8-buss just down the road from where I am, in the UK. But at least that was in a proper studio. A little further in the other direction, Kylie Minogue's 'Can't Get You Out Of My Head' was laid down (yes, even the vocals) in a converted garage on another Mackie 8-buss. Actually, a helluva lot of famous stuff's been laid down in that garage...

Steve

VoodooRadio · Location: USA

Sorry bout that, I thought that the she used the same effect that Kid Rock did about the same time. I read an interview with him and he said that he used a vocorder with the pitch slur being controlled by a synth. The synth used the mod/pitch wheel to "wiggle" the sound. Good Luck Voodoo

mixman · Location: United Kingdom

It was NOT Antares Autotune, it was a Digitech vocoder in which the vocoded vocal was shifted by a note to make the effect more pronounced. Also, a filter and the Digitech were used to get a telephone-type quality to some of the vocals.

The producers of the track were Mark Taylor and Brian Rawling. In a magazine article, Mark Rawling said this:

"It all began with a Korg VC10, which is a very rare, very groovy-looking analogue vocoder from the '70s, with a built-in synth, a little keyboard and a microphone stuck on top", he enthuses.

"Anyway, the Korg VC10 looks bizarre, but it's great to use if you want to get vocoder effects up and running straight away. You just play the keyboard to provide a vocoder carrier signal, sing into the microphone to produce the modulator signal, and off you go. The only drawback is the synth -- you can't do anything to change the sound, so the effects you can produce are rather limited.

"I played around with the vocals and realised that the vocoder effect could work, but not with the Korg -- the results just weren't clear enough. So instead, I used a Digitech Talker -- a reasonably new piece of kit that looks like an old guitar foot pedal, which I suspect is what it was originally designed for. You plug your mic straight into it, and it gives you a vocoder-like effect, but with clarity; it almost sounds like you've got the original voice coming out the other end. I used a tone from the Nord Rack as a carrier signal and sequenced the notes the Nord was playing from Cubase to follow Cher's vocal melody. That gave the vocals that 'stepped' quality that you can hear prominently throughout the track -- but only when I shifted the the Nord's notes back a bit. For some reason, if you track the vocal melody exactly, with the same notes and timing, you hardly get get any audible vocoded effect. But I was messing about with the Nord melody sequence in Cubase and shifted all the notes back a fraction with respect to the vocal. Then you really started to hear it, although even then it was a bit hit-and-miss -- I had to experiment with the timing of each of the notes in the Nord melody sequence to get the best effect. You couldn't hear an effect on all the vocals by any means -- and on others it made the words completely impossible to understand!

"In the end, we only used vocoded sections where they had the most striking effect, but didn't make the lyrics unintelligible. To do that, I had to keep the vocoded bits very short. So for example, when Cher sang 'Do you believe in life after love?', I think I only cut the processed vocals into the phrase on just the syllables 'belie-' from 'believe' and 'lo-' from 'love' -- but that was enough to make the whole phrase sound really arresting. I made sure throughout that the last word of each vocal phrase was unprocessed, because again, I found it sounded too bubbly and hard to understand when it was vocoded."

Mark spent time alone in the studio painstakingly processing Cher's vocals in this way, and by the following morning, he was convinced he didn't have the nerve to play her what he'd done. "It was a bit radical," he laughs. "Basically, it was the destruction of her voice, so I was really nervous about playing it to her! In the end, I just thought it sounded so good, I had to at least let her hear it -- so I hit Play. She was fantastic -- she just said 'it sounds great!', so the effect stayed. I was amazed by her reaction, and so excited, because I knew it was good."

Although the vocoder effect was Mark's idea, the other obvious vocal effect in 'Believe' is the 'telephoney' quality of Cher's vocal throughout. This idea came from the lady herself -- she'd identified something similar on a Roachford record and asked Mark if he could reproduce it.

He explains, "Roachford uses a restricted bandwidth, and filters the vocals heavily so that the top and bottom ends are wound off and the whole vocal is slightly distorted. It took a while to work out exactly what it was that Cher liked about this particular Roachford song, but in the end we realised it was the 'telephoney' sound. I used the filter section on my Drawmer DS404 gate on the vocal before it went into the Talker to get that effect."

So there you have it!

mixman · Location: United Kingdom

Here's the link to the entire interview about the way Cher's Believe was made:

http://www.sospubs.co.uk/sos/feb99/articles/tracks661.htm

VoodooRadio · Location: USA

Of course I've never seen the Mark Taylor interview, but at about the same time, Kid Rock came out with a song that had the exact same effect on his voice. I did see a magazine interview with him and he basically said the same thing. I don't recall the keyboard that was used, but it was the same principle. I just assumed that because they were the same type effect and came in around the same time period, that they were using something similiar. Good Luck Voodoo

Graeme · Member Location: Spain

Having read the article, it would appear that both SteveG and myself were wrong.

However, I can't help thinking that it would have been a damn sight easier to have used an Autotune Smile

vincent · Posted - Sun May 05, 2002 12:37 am

it's curious how people can affirm things without verify before...

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

Yes, I recalled the device incorrectly. No excuse, except that I read the article ages ago and didn't check the details again...

Steve

Graeme · Member Location: Spain

vincent · Posted - Sun May 05, 2002 4:31 am

It's true. No problem.

mixman · Location: United Kingdom

I don't think it sounds like Autotune at all. Although the pitch has been shifted on the parts of the chorus mentioned in the article, there is obvious vocoding on those parts and you can clearly hear the filter on the rest of the vocals.

It was quite a cool gimmick at the time - everyone I know who mentioned this song at the time of release talked about the processed vocals more than they talked about liking the song, which just shows how superficial the music market can be! The UK singer-songwriter Judie Tzuke used a similar effect on an an album track at about the same time, and claims she did it first; and the Europop group Eiffel 65 have made processed vocals their trademark!

Interestingly (or not, as the case may be), Cher tried vocoders on her recent UK/European comeback single The Music's No Good Without You, but that track was not much of a success and was criticised for its "tired use of vocoders".

Lorisha · Location: France

GEEE ....
GUYS,,,,,,,,

WOW ...... you all are sooo helpfull. .....I am proud that when i was this desperate lil DID .....u know ..your typical "Damsel In Distress !!!" .....I think i came to the right place ...thanks guys !!!
I will definetly see to that !!!
so .......knowing about this plugin called ..."Antarres Autotune" ...and also the "Vocooder" ...is my priority !!!
well....HANZ ....Vodoradio ...Graeme ..... SteveG...MIxman
you all are cool

Well....I am into this cooledit recently ...and till now i just love it !!!
well...i am at

www.geocities.com/lorisha90

so guys ....one more thing !!!
if i were to make a background for my website ...is it wise to use mp3 pro ? or should i stick to mp3 ....the old one ?

nils · Posted - Mon May 06, 2002 10:59 am

You may try VoiceTweaker. With this you can change the pitch with MIDI keyboard controllers keys or pitch bender. And a lot more

Rod · Location: USA

Well, it's true that they could have done the Cher effect much more easily! If you want to hear me playing around doing Kid Rock (or Kid Rod as the case may be), you can download a 500K mp3 clip that I did with Cool Edit Pro and the Antares Auto Tune. Note: This is for fun only. Go to http://home.aol.com/rodandhaley then click on "Only Rod Knows Why?" at the top to download the small mp3 clip.

Rod · Location: USA

Lorisha, usually background sounds for websites are in the form of .wav files and are very low fidelity. I've had some success using an mp3 encoder to make a standard "mp3" file with a WAV header (so I could put in the background of my website). Try www.opticom.de and look for "producer". If you want to make songs available for download, then by all means use the mp3PRO option available in Cool Edit Pro. This is an exciting new format that gives the best sound with small file sizes. Note: mp3PRO is not for archiving music, but is really internet friendly. Best of luck to you! Rod

PS: Make sure that you post a link on your website where listeners can download and install the mp3PRO plug-in FOR WinAmp so they can listen to the new format in all it's full glory!!! (If they don't want to bother, the file will still play, but it just won't sound as good).
http://mp3prozone.com/download_winamp.htm

Edited by - Rod on 05/09/2002 12:14:22 AM

TQ · Posted - Thu May 09, 2002 7:48 am

A very interesting thread, but the vocoder function in my version of CEP 1.2a is greyed out. Why is this?

Lardon · Location: Canada

post78 · Location: USA

When I showed up here nearly a year ago I had the same question about the vocoder. Even after reading the manual and replies here, it still too me awhile to figure out. I kept clicking to the left of the first wav and draging to the right of the next wav, when you are actually supposed to click on the first wav. It's really easy, but not really.

TQ · Posted - Thu May 09, 2002 5:46 pm

Thanks for posting, post.
Lardon: Of course I checked the help file prior to posting, but I never could get the vocoder function to activate. For me, at least, it isn't intuitive, but I'll keep trying.

TQ · Posted - Thu May 09, 2002 6:45 pm

Ah! Now I see how to do it. I don't know why that didn't occur to me earlier. Now all I have to do is find out if it's a useful feature...

post78 · Location: USA

See what I mean? It's totally obvious now that you know, but for some reason a bit tough really figuring out.

TQ · Posted - Fri May 10, 2002 7:20 am

Kind of like those puzzles in Jedi Knight-Jedi Outcast. You just have to keep trying different things until one of them works. Then, you go "doh!"...that was so obvious.

Lardon · Location: Canada

Rod · Location: USA

Speaking of true vocoders by the way, I have several different ones in my rack as well as a 12 band model designed by myself. I must say that the Vocoder built into Cool Edit Pro is a very fine one indeed. Words are very clear if you set it up right. This means using a very harmonic rich carrier signal (such as sawtooth or square waves), and adding in some white noise to this using the MIX PASTE function. This helps when the vocoder tries to synthesize SSSS's or SHHHH sounds. With some experimentation, the sound is fantastic. And it is a true vocoder (not a pitch quantizer like the Antares or Digitech).

PS: Thanks for the compliments Lorisha on our web site, and I have emailed you directly about the question not related to Cool Edit Pro. Thanks again! Rod

RajahP · Posted - Sat May 11, 2002 7:59 am

I think this is what y'all are looking for..

http://www.antarestech.com/products/avp.html#audio

Example #4: The "Cher Effect"

Here's another vocal with pitch problems, but this time processed with Auto-Tune's Speed parameter set to 0. (What have we wrought?)

mjb · Posted - Mon May 13, 2002 6:42 am

Re: The "It's a vocoder/It's Antares Autotune/It's Digitech Vocalist/It's ...."

It doesn't help when either companies who build the above products, or the salespeople who know nothing about them, mislead everyone by saying "As used on Cher's hit song 'Believe'"

I've seen adverts in print which claim Autotune. I know now, having read the above article, that they are wrong, as there is way too much detail for the article to be wrong! I've seen them claim "Digitech Vocalist" too. (Though not talker, I guess these are different products?)

Mike.

horizon · Location: USA

Andrew Rose · Location: United Kingdom

Blimey - this is an old thread!

Something to bear in mind before using this rather jaded (IMO) effect - only yesterday I heard a national radio DJ here in the UK complaining about the use of a vocoder on the new Shania Twain single, and stating that she didn't really need it, though there are plenty of other singers who probably do. Now when a mainstream DJ starts moaning about something as technical as this, perhaps it's time to stop using it.

Personally I find it the most annoying-sounding piece of modern musical technology in common use today. I hated the Cher song for it and I hate the way it's ruined so many other songs since. If I could erase all the software and jump up and down on all the hardware to create this dastardly noise I'd do it now!!! Evil

horizon · Location: USA

well I respect your opinion, but what the poll shows here in this forum even, I see 99% of people actually really liked it and thats why inquired about it. That does include me as well.

I personally like this effect and really enjoy listening to it.

Thanks for your comments, however I am really looking for some help here to be able to produce that with CEP. Rod did it, and knows how to do it. I hope Rod or someone else who really can explain my question will help.

Thanks.

Horizon

Andrew Rose · Location: United Kingdom

My point is that once you've got prominent DJs moaning about it perhaps it's time to cut back on its use. And where's that poll?

harmo · Posted - Thu May 15, 2003 10:49 am

i don't know about a poll but I am in total agreement w/ Andrew...I can't stand Cher and that vocal effect is cheesy, insipid, and bilious!!

horizon · Location: USA

lol, as you like guys its totally your own choice. I like the effect and am interested to learn how to create one..... meee is here for seeking help!!!

There isn't an actuall poll here but reading the threads I saw alot of people interested in it. oh well anyways....im looking for some positive help rather than negative feedback about the effect.

Thanks

Horizon

P.S: By the way I read Cher was a lil upset about it at first too, but then she really loved it and went ahead with it. The song in fact got so famous coz of that effect, to be honest....believe it or not Wink

Gulliver · Location: Estonia

All my experiments with CEP's native vocoder sounded different than that one on Sher's "Believe". The most striking (almost identical results minus Sher voice, she wasn't available Big Grin

) similarity was achieved when I applied Autotune plug-in (in CEP as the host program, of course) to slightly out of tune vocals. That's all I can add to this very topic. Approve

horizon · Location: USA

That's interesting. Now Gulliver could you please tell us where did you find that plugin and whats the price tag on that? It be a help!!
Thanks

bonnder · Posted - Thu May 15, 2003 1:37 pm

Click the "Search" button at the top of this page and type in "autotune".

This thread might be of interest.

'Adjusting one vocal note'

For Autotune at Antares, try: (search Google on "autotune" or "antares")

http://www.antarestech.com/products/index.html
http://www.antarestech.com/products/auto-tune3.html

You will find autotune on the first page, plus several other products
that might interest you. For price on autotune, go here:

https://secure.cnchost.com/antarestech.com/cgi/step1.pl

PC - 5-15-03:
Auto-Tune 3 RTAS was $399.00 now $359.00
Auto-Tune 3 DirectX was $299.00 now $269.00

Helpful Hint:

All of this info took about 3 minutes to find. Practice searching this
forum and Google (web and groups): http://www.google.com/

You can find almost anything when you know what you are doing.
You learn what you are doing through practice.

horizon · Location: USA

Thanks, i already grabbed that info from the google...well I shud have been more specific. I was under the impression Gulliver might provide us with a demo version of that autotune plugin, since the price on that is pretty high , out of my range though.

yup you are right about the google, thats what I suggest to people since its a web crawler n gives pretty uptodate and decent results.

About searching out the forum for threads, I think i did that as well. The only thing is that those threads are darn old, and when I wana interact, the participants are all gone, n then I receive from you guys is that you are missing the date...

well..anyways, I`ll keep looking for solutions.

Thanks for your prompt response.

Peace!

Horizon

teflon20 · Location: Australia

why don't you all ask Cher? surE....................... Wink

cooknkpl · Location: USA

A nice lady donated an Antares AVP to my studio...maybe I'll try to figure this one out just for fun...Any hints?

VoodooRadio · Location: USA

Actually, this entire dialog was visited "exhaustingly" last year. The processor used was a Digitech Talker (Vocorder). Here's the skinny.....

William Rose · Location: USA

Ummmmm.....This IS the thread.

Isn't it ? Blush

horizon · Location: USA

Phewww!!!! lol. Ok guys lets close this talk. I appreciate everyone's input. Thanks Smile

bonnder · Posted - Fri May 16, 2003 12:47 am

Horizon:

The link I suggested you should check out pointed to Autotune Jr.(my term)for $35.

-----------------------------------------
OB-TUNE is an autotune plugin developed on contract with Antares. It ain't perfect and it isn't going anywhere in the future, but it is cheap and it works well. It does cause an application error when you EXIT CEP (also happens with other software I use).

On my system (with 2.1) it only works in edit view. If I try to use it realtime the resulting sound is an octave low.

http://www.musicyo.com/product_specs.asp?pf_id=998

I'm making it sound pretty bad, but I'm glad I bought it. Unless you really crank the settings, the sound is quite transparent and it is very effective on a lot of material.

zemlin
-----------------------------------------

You might also check this out - it's free:

http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~marek/intune/index.html

horizon · Location: USA

Thanks folks, all those participated and contributed. It was one heck of an info that lead me to acheive my desired results through experimenting.

I appreciate your help. Zemlin thanks for that OB Tune, I haven't got it yet, I tried it through pitch shifting (the hard way) but I came close. If I get some serious business with that effect then I`ll probably go with that OB tune you suggested. As for now, I aint gonna produce big stuf. It was my curiosity just to understand how it cud be acheived.

Once again, thanks to all.

Horizon

jonrose · Location: USA

VoodooRadio · Location: USA

I was hoping to confuse us!!!

jonrose · Location: USA

Nice try, Voodoo...
Heh! Big Grin

techristian · Location: Canada

I can also create the same effect with the Helicon Quintet.

http://teachmedrums.com/quintet.html

You can create a nice CHORUS EFFECT with Cool Edit though.

1) Make 3 or 4 copies of your vocal file.
2) Add one type of flange effect to a file.
3) Add another flange to the other file.
4) Filter the highs from another.
5) Filter the lows from the other.
6) Use COPY and ADD/PASTE to add the files together but add them together 7,14,21 milliseconds offset from each other.
7) Finally process the final *.wav with more filtering and or slight reverb.

Dan

Dj_Joseph · Location: Brazil

The software or hardware is ANTARES AUTO-TUNE.
First , set the RETUNE feature at the maximus.
Second, desable the notes you don�t need for the case song.
The tune will imediatly jump from a note to other without make curves.
It makes the vocal take a keyboard impresion, like cher - Believe, and
Daft Punk - One more time.
But I think that the hardware may make the effect better than the software.
Sorry my bad english.

VoodooRadio · Location: USA

What.... what's that? Ohh, I'm sorry. I thought I heard the Fat Lady singing!! Approve

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Say Good night Irene. "Good night"!

Princeamor · Location: USA

Yea I have been Using The Antares Auto-Tuner to Do that for a little while. I use the Direct X plugin inside CEP 2.1.