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dazco · Posted - Fri Dec 14, 2001 6:18 pm

i was gonna get the santa cruz, but the sale at comp usa is over. so i thought since i'll have to pay close to $100 anyway, maybe i should just go for a higher end card. at a site i was at earlier, they compare a lot of cards, and the other turtle beach cards didn't score as well. so if i were to go for a highere end card, i suppose i'd be better off with another brand....does that sound right?

i'm thinking that the logical thing to look for is a 24 bit card, so what can i find in that category thats gonna be a noticable improvment over the cruz without paying a lot more? or is that even possible? some of the posts i see regarding the cruz seem to believe that the cruz can't be beat without spending a lot more. any thoughts are welcome.

thanks,-dale

Mel Davis · Posted - Sat Dec 15, 2001 4:18 pm

www.buy.com has the Santa Cruz for $58.26 plus shipping, and a lot of dealers come in well under $100:
http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php?masterid=410204&ut=0cf96969916d69c1
I've used buy.com a few times without a problem. Some people have trouble there.

The true 24-bit sound cards seem to start at about $150 web prices.

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

sk · Location: USA

Well, I just read your other post where this same issue is being addressed, and maybe because I don't have the Mia, I'm having a hard time imagining exactly how the controls are set up. But I trust that you certainly know how to record music, and if you say it works, that's fine with me. It just didn't make much sense to me from the description I was reading. I do agree, however, that the guy from Mia should have told a perspective buyer more clearly what to expect in terms of potential outboard hardware, etc. when using the Mia.

sk

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

I think that you're right about making it more explicit to people. Despite the fact that it's not a problem, it's not at all obvious how you're supposed to deal with this if you don't know the answer.

It wouldn't even take very much - 'there are no input level controls on the Mia - levels are to be determined externally' would give people a clue to expect something different from the card, at least.

Actually, with a lot of soundcards, people don't find that they ever have to change record levels very much. One way to cope with this as a Mia user is just to say to yourself, 'well, they've set the levels for me, and stopped me screwing up the settings by removing the mute control as well. Thank you, Echo!'

sk · Location: USA

Thanks, Steve, for your response. And in an effort to really listen to what you're saying and try to understand, while at the same time try not to see either just black and white or run an argument to the point of absurdity, it sounded to me in your post about the Mia recording controls, that you were saying any time you relegate the controls to the digital, vs. hardware medium, certain unavoidable digital artifacts become introduced into the final sound. If I misunderstood that, then just ignore the rest of this post, and I'll erase it later. But if I did understand that part correctly, then aren't you in essence saying that when it comes to recording, the 'best' way to accomplish it is by using hardware, and not software at all? Because even from manufacturers who make both, their claim is that the software can do what their hardware can do at a fraction of the cost, and in some cases even do a better job. I know that even the 'Cedars' system that comes with the computer is still based primarily on the software. But if you're saying that even introducing recording volume controls via software introduces more artifacts than similar functions provided by outboard hardware, it just follows then, that the more the software is involved in the recording/mastering process, the more artifacts will be introduced. I thought, from a pracitical perspective, it was more the opposite. That the evolving innovations in software development have made it possible to enhance, not degrade, the final sound.

sk

dazco · Posted - Sun Dec 16, 2001 10:30 am

so are you guys saying that with the mia, even the windows recording control's line in has no effect on incoming signal?

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

To answer dazco and sk:

You are both correct! But let me explain why - It's actually fairly simple. When you convert a signal from analog to digital, the basic signal chain is as follows: A line input preamp/signal conditioner, immediately followed by the A/D converter. The function of the signal conditioner is only to make sure that the input signal conforms in terms of amplitude and DC offset to the conditions that the A/D converter requires. Usually a single high-quality op-amp will do this. If you put in the best quality op-amp available, the A/D converter can still do better.... (there are several other posts about this).

Anyway, this is the highest quality system you can have, regardless of whether it's in a PC or not. The slight advantage that the ones not in PCs have is that generally, the electrical interference level is lower, so you can achieve slightly more of the available S/N ratio.

Now let's put an input level control into the equation. You have two choices: an attenuator between the signal conditioner and the A/D, or some digital conditioning around the converter. Unless it's a passive device, like a mechanical volume control, it's going to introduce noise of its own, and it means that you will only be able to turn things down. If you want extra gain, then you have to have an additional gain stage (=more noise). So that's going to make things worse. And if you do it digitally, you're going to end up truncating bits somewhere - this is inevitable.

Now Echo know full well that if you want to attenuate the signal anywhere in this chain, the best place to do it is just before the signal conditioner, with a passive system, which you can't put on a soundcard. So they leave it to you to do, just before the input...

So in a 'normal' soundcard, you have an input mixer, which feeds into the A/D converter. You need it, because that's the only way you can get signals at the same time from CDs, DVDs, a mic, a line input, etc etc. available easily into it. This mixer has digital attenuators, and on it's own significantly degrades most soundcards. The other thing that you have to watch out for with any card like this is having inputs enabled which you're not using - this adds significantly to the noise!

You will note that there are no other inputs for internal devices available on the Mia. It can't have them, because there is no mixer, or even an input switcher (which would be slightly better than a mixer). There's a driver utility to play audio CDs, but it does this by digital extraction and feeds the signals straight into the DSP chip. If you look at the card, you'll see surprisingly few components on it. This is a card that's designed to do one thing very well, without the compromises for convenience that other cards make. Yes, it has an output mixer. But this occurs in the digital domain, and Echo quite clearly state that using attenuated settings reduces the output resolution.

Yes, I wish they'd make all that a bit clearer to end-users as well. Okay, I knew what I was getting, but I bet a lot of people don't...

Steve

sk · Location: USA

Thanks, Steve.
I knew going into this there'd be a lot to learn, and I appreciate you taking the time to share your expertise. Piece by piece, the puzzle is definitely becoming clearer.
Good tunes!
sk

dazco · Posted - Sun Dec 16, 2001 4:41 pm

i bought the cruz today. not sure how good it is yet, as i haven't done anything with it other than listen to a few files. one thing i noticed is that under recording in the window control, there is a slider that just says "record", and the slider is not movable and the mute box is greyed out. whats that about? why is it even there in the 1st place since it's not tweakable. theres also a slider in recording panel called "compact disc". whats that for?

also, didnt someone post about the graphic e.q. and say it doesn't tell you what band each slider is, or something like that? mine isn't missing anything.......maybe they fixed that recently?

i definatly like the control panel more than the SBlive. WAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYY MORE !

i'll be recording a CD tonite from vinyl, so i'll find out just how good the sound is.

and one more thing.......with windows theres usually a slider under "recording" that is called "stereo out". with SBlive it's called "what u hear". it's for recording anything thats playing, so you can play a file and record it just by starting any recorder. with the cruz, this seems to be called "output mix, correct? anyway, it works same as i'm used to, but what i don't get is why i can also record from any sound present at the card with the mic slider checked !! whats going on there i wonder?
however

-dale

Edited by - dazco on 12/16/2001 4:46:02 PM

sk · Location: USA

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

dazco · Posted - Sun Dec 16, 2001 7:28 pm

sk,

you misunderstood..........i meant that i was in the windows recording panel, not the sc panel.

i do have another question tho.......how are the optional apps that come on the CD? is the wav editor worth installing, of is it a waste since i have CEP? or is there anything else worthwhile besides the midi station, which i'll install if i come across any midis i wanna work with.
by the way, it came with another CD called "EJAY" that seems to be some kind of hip hop recrding software. whats in it? anything worthwhile to someone who has CEP already and is NOT into hip hop, rap, etc?

-dale

sk · Location: USA

Oh, ok, Dale.
As far as the grayed out slider, it might have something to do with how you have it configured. Whether or not you have the SC chosen, or Windows chosen, as well as whether or not you have 'Use only preferred devices' checked or not.

As far as the apps go, I didn't choose to install any of them. What do you think they could possibly package for free that could come close to CE?

sk

Edited by - sk on 12/16/2001 8:22:21 PM

Sinclair · Posted - Tue Dec 18, 2001 6:49 pm

I believe, daz, that if memory serves, a certain fellow over on the Asusboards.com site also suggested the Mia for much the same reason. A dedicated card that is focused on recording. No multimedia compromise, the Mia has one mission in life: to get you into professional level recording at a reasonable price point.

Sinclair · Posted - Tue Dec 18, 2001 7:05 pm

I like SteveG's posts. He tends to rock the boat a bit. That's good considering the complacency that the professional recording industry feels comfoprtable with.
Reminds me of the Monty Python bit: "I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition" (the door bursts open) "No one expects the Spanish Inqusition..."
The pro recording industry definately prefers the comfy chair.

Wot? We now have to support another 32-bit OS? It's called...what...XP?

Sinclair · Posted - Tue Dec 18, 2001 7:07 pm

Sinclair · Posted - Tue Dec 18, 2001 7:11 pm

dan252000 · Posted - Tue Dec 18, 2001 8:21 pm

Hey all,

I have a newbie question about soundcards. I am using CEP/SE on a windows platform. I cannot hear the audio source as I record. What do you recommend for a soundcard that would enable me to do so? Or am I just missing something simple somewhere???

Please help!

dan252000

Sinclair · Posted - Wed Dec 19, 2001 5:00 am

I'm not quite certain I understand, dan. You say you "can't hear the source". I'm going to assume you're trying to playback and record simultaneously. For that, you'll need a card capable of doing so. A "full-duplex" card. The sound card we're discussing here will allow you to do that. The Turtle Beach Santa Cruz is a very good cusumer level card that runs about $70 U.S.

dan252000 · Posted - Wed Dec 19, 2001 8:21 pm

sk · Location: USA

I don't even know if this makes any difference, but as I was reading the last post it made me wonder if by the way a full duplex soundcard is designed the sound that's heard (I assume you mean through headphones) is the sound after it's been processed by the sound card, as opposed to listening to the sound through an outboard mixer, which would be the sound as processed by the mixer but before it reached the sound card. Also, I found that the sound through headphones - depending on the sensitivity level of the heaphones themselves - is not necessarily all that functional to begin with, even with the volume maxed out. That's one reason they make small dedicated headphone amps, as well as mic amps and mixers. (NOW I'm an 'expert' in all this; it sure came as a surprise to me at first, though. This is just all part of the learning curve. When I first saw the headphone jack, as well as the line out, I just assumed with all the digital wizardry packed onto the sound card that it had a built in amp. Obviously I knew that the only reason my speakers play as loud as they do is because they're amplified. But I figured how much does it take to amplify a pair of headphones. But the volume through the Sennheiser headphones I used first was only barely adequate. I was able to get decent volume with the Santa Cruz, though, with a newer pair of Koss heaphones. And it might be worth noting that both of them played louder through the Santa Cruz than through the ESS Allegro on-board audio that came with the computer.

sk

Edited by - sk on 12/19/2001 10:00:45 PM

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

With most full-duplex cards, what you monitor is rather up to you. A lot provide a zero-latency route from the input straight to the output, but by altering the windows mixer settings you can monitor the PC output instead.

Headphone sensitivities can vary enormously. You can get 'phones that will provide quite a listenable level just by bridging a line input - these are going to be at least 600 ohm ones. The low impedance ones, 8 - 35 ohms range, are designed to run off very low power, or attenuated speaker outputs.

Koss have always made pretty sensitive headphones, and also pretty loud ones. They famously made a pair called 'Red Devils'. It was roumoured that they got this name because of what they could do to your ears...

Steve

sk · Location: USA

My first Koss headphones were a pair of Pro4A's, that weighed a ton, by today's standards, especially when compared to the Sennheiser open air design. They had a 'mysterious' silver appendage on one side, that nobody could ever figure what it did. Then I was talking to a studio sound engineer who said it was an attachment that enabled them to be connected to a boom in a studio, for support, because the damn things were so heavy!

But with regard to the utility of the sound card's configurability - if the Santa Cruz can be configured that way, it certainly is not explained in the documentation that comes with the card.

sk

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

Bearing in mind that I'm not familiar with the SC, what happens if you open the playback window in the Windows Mixer, and set it to show all the controls? Do you get a slider that says line input? If you do, this should give you almost zero-latency monitoring - it's likely to be A-D-D-A processed, rather than a really straight link, though.

The real problem with a lot of soundcards is that they seem to get easily set up to do this the other way around just by checking loads of boxes in the mixer - so that the output gets re-recorded with the input, only a bit later due to the playback processing latency. That's the one we get lots of 'newbie' posts about, and that it's nearly damned nigh impossible to sort out on some ESS cards.

But you have to beware - there really is no common ground in terms of mixer features on soundcards - every manufacturer seems to think that they know best! In general, though, manufacturers like Echo, who are making cards designed for audio are likely to give you rather less hassle from this point of view.

On the Mia, for instance, the monitoring option is the right way around, so that you can monitor the input in the output(s), not the output in the input!

Steve

sk · Location: USA

codifus · Posted - Wed Dec 26, 2001 3:52 pm

I also just bought and insalled the Santa Cruz. I replaced my ensoniq Audio PCI card. I've already done one recording with the santa cruz and noticed a definite difference for the better! Its a really nice card.

But, I am also having the problem where I can not listen to the recording as I am recording it. It does everything else right but that. I am using it in "2 speaker" mode with my versajack configured as line out.

Another thing I noticed, when recording with CE, every so often, CE 'pauses' to let the data being recorded transfer from memory to the hard drive. I can see it because the time counters 'stop' every so often. What's that about?

Has anyone found a fix to any of these? I sent an e-mail to Turtle beach support and I'm waiting to get a response. Once they get back to me I'll let everyone know, but if anyone already has a solution, please share!

CD

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

Jim Smitherman · Posted - Thu Dec 27, 2001 7:37 pm

Steve, what are you talking about re the no mute on the Mia mixer? I can mute anything on mine . . . either locked or separately. The dependence on the hardware for input level was a sigh of relief to me, I feel much more in control. I didn't realize there was such clear thinking going on in card makers heads.

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

Jim Smitherman · Posted - Fri Dec 28, 2001 10:22 am

The inputs have a mute, though you're right, apparently they don't 'really' mute. They can on my hardware setup, depending on how I've got the Mackie set, though (which is, of course, hardware--actually what it does is give me a way to route the signal to only the cntrol room/submix via software. weird.). pressing the mute on the in, stops the VU on the 'real' out, though, even though the VU on the in still runs. . . (i'm looking at it while playing a cd). So, that's a little confusing, since there appears to be no real difference between muting the input, which really is there on mine, and muting the output.

Teej · Posted - Fri Dec 28, 2001 1:47 pm

Well.. I must say, I came here to learn the ins and outs of recording. And you guys aren't disappointing me! ;)

hehe

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

Jim, with all due respect, your hardware setup hardly counts as a software record input mute on the Mia!!! So where is this recording soundcard mute you're talking about???

The only way I know of to stop the damned thing recording is by not allocating it as your recording device! Personally, I don't mind this at all. If things don't get recorded, then you have to look elsewhere (like on the disabled output on your Mackie... :)

Steve

Jim Smitherman · Posted - Sat Dec 29, 2001 4:08 am

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

Jim Smitherman · Posted - Sat Dec 29, 2001 10:16 am

Oh the manual . . ok, let me look. Hmmmm. No. Mine does not look like that. You're certainly correct in your description of the manual's screen shot, though.

Mine in fact does have 'M' buttons. On mine, all four input channels are on the bottom, that is, along the same row and having the same height as the 8 virtual outs, then on the far right is the analog out 1/2. On mine, there are not only volume sliders on each input channel, but also panning sliders, as well as the 'M' button, as well as a 'G' button that will lock them together (both muting and volume), and then the switch for the +4 / - 10 choice.

Maybe it's a difference in the mixer for win2k and 98se?

Jim

Jim Smitherman · Posted - Sat Dec 29, 2001 10:38 am

Steve, I see, checking the Echo site, that the 2k/xp beta drivers included two downloads, one for the drivers, and another for the console. This is the console I'm using, unless the upgrade to the supported drivers changed it as well. There are also signifcant differences in other areas of configuration for 2k. There is nothing availble to configure in control panel, for instance, even though the manual suggests there is. The windows mixer itself is even dumber than windows mixer in 98, after the Mia install gets through with it.

I can, on the input sliders, on the Mia mixer, adjust the volume down, and the panning sliders do pan. Interesting. However, sliding the sliders down, does not affect the VU meter on the input channel (counterintuitively), it does affect the output VU.

Jim

Edited by - Jim Smitherman on 12/29/2001 10:46:06 AM

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

So it is different! But this bit is interesting:

Jim Smitherman · Posted - Sat Dec 29, 2001 5:57 pm

Steve, yes, it's a monitoring thing. It does not affect the recording (that's why I was saying that muting the input doesn't 'really' mute the input). There is a manual for the console, if you go to the beta area for the 2k/xp drivers, you can read it. It shows essentially what I see, but uses a screen shot of the Gina console as the monitor example. The biggest difference being the virtual outs of the Mia vs the digital ins of the Gina. But, it all works the same.

I don't see it mention where reducing the slider volume reduces the bit depth, though. Why would this be a necessity?

Jim

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

Once you've digitised a signal, the only way to reduce its volume quickly in a soundcard is to scale the sound down in relation to the bit depth it was digitised at. This will inevitably reduce the resolution.

On the other hand, if you adjust the level of your incoming sound so that it is digitised using the maximum number of bits available, then that's what you get - high resolution digitisation - but only up to a point. (see later)

The real problem is increasing the level of sound once it's digitised - you just end up with larger code jumps than you need, because you've spread the original number of digitisation steps over a wider number, where the higher values will be reproduced at a greater volume. This is when low-level 'quantising' noise becomes apparent, and this noise becomes more of a problem if this occurs within the audible dynamic range.

A common misconception about this is that it is possible to increase the number of digitisation steps to achieve a greater resolution. It actually doesn't work like this, because in this case we're making a linear recording of something that's actually logarithmically percieved - sound. The dynamic range increases by 6dB for every 'bit' of resolution added, and analog electronics (your line input) can't resolve any more than about 20-21 bits' worth, due to thermal noise, which can't be overcome at room temperature. This very fortunately coincides with what the human ear can resolve - about 120dB of dynamic range.

This is why the Mia, and all other 24-bit soundcards, don't ever reach their potential noise floor of -144dB. And why the concept of a 32-bit card is pointless - the resolution of 24-bit cards at our hearing threshold is now at a point considerably beyond anybody's ability to detect any anomolies!

Steve

Jim Smitherman · Posted - Sun Dec 30, 2001 7:38 am

Is it, in this case, in the soundcard itself where the volume reduction happens? Since the signal on the VU remains the same, doesn't that mean that the, er, signal remains the same (in the card itself that is) . . . . and that the volume reduction happens elsewhere (I'm just hacking around here . . ). Maybe I just don't understand fully what you mean. It appears that the bit depth is not altered by the volume reduction, at least not on the recording itself (otherwise, the quality of the recording would have changed, since I drew the sliders up and down while recording) while it is being recorded, but only in the 'output' that is in the sound?

Or, wouldn't it be possible, considering the WDM that 2k uses, to have some kind of control via the OS . . . or, would that still be reducing the bit depth of the output (since in fact, it is the output VU that is altered when you change the input controls).

Jim Smitherman · Posted - Sun Dec 30, 2001 10:37 am

I suppose on reflection, that something has to happen in the card itself to reduce the volume, but it does have to be affecting only the output. I don't notice any drop in quality when I reduce the volume, though, and this is on a pretty good sound system.

What starts me thinking about the OS involvment is the, to me, rather mysterious ability of the thing to play a cd through the pci bus, rather than any kind of direct connection, as I'm used to on other cards I've had.

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

I recon that the output VU is changing because it's the output that you're monitoring from, and altering the monitor level will of course change this.

As to where it's all happening, I think that as usual, the control panel drivers are doing the mixing and monitor level control in the DSP chip on the card itself, not in any 3rd party software.

But if you play with digital levels on the soundcard, you are going to lose resolution once you've reduced the number of levels representing your sound. Okay, these levels are being calculated using internal 32-bit precision but once they're converted, that's it. You are stuck with the lower-precision converted value. Unless you use CE and store your original as 32-bit so you can go back to it.

That's why the Mia's way of not playing around with the input levels is so good; it allows you to make sensible decisions without unintentionally screwing up your original digitising. If you put in a suitably hot signal to use the full conversion range, that's exactly what you're going to get!

The Mia also uses its 32-bit engine to calculate values for the internal output mixer. And if you look in the manual on the bottom of page 21 ( and this really is the definitive answer! ) you will see the follwoing words of wisdom:

Jim Smitherman · Posted - Sun Dec 30, 2001 12:04 pm

Oh, I believed you, I was just trying to understand it. RTFM. I usually do, in fact, and in fact, did, but there is a lot there that bears rereading. I've had all too little time just to make music, at least here at home, lately, and play with the card and all that. Things will settle down, though.

thanks for the discussion. How does that pci bus- cd reading work, anyway? How hard is that to implelement? Why don't all pci sound cards do that??

younglove · Posted - Tue Jan 01, 2002 1:23 pm

There's a plugin for winamp that will allow you to play CDs from your CDROM using your
probably superior soundcard's DAC instead of your CDROM's DAC. Only helps for playing
through winamp, though.

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

According to the Echo update PDF, the utility that Younglove is talking about, or something like it, is actually installed with the WDM drivers. They say that it will work with Winamp, CDMax, Sonique and UltraPlayer, so you can choose your poison.

The basic principle is the same as 'ripping', so your drive needs to be able to do a digital extraction a little faster than x1 for this to work - most modern drives will manage a much greater rate than this. Once the application, say, Winamp has found the extracted stream, it treats it like any other streaming audio format that it's presented with, by decoding it if necessary and streaming it to the soundcard. Voila!

Steve

Jim Smitherman · Posted - Tue Jan 01, 2002 8:15 pm

yes, the Mia works fine with no additonal addons for playing cds. sounds great. I've had problems with some players not being able to get to the online database of cd's through my proxy, but that isn't the Mia's fault. Windows Media Player will get through. I often just fire up cool2000 though, and get all old fashion, and actually read the back of the cd for the tracks.