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midnightcreeper · Posted - Sat Jun 21, 2003 7:01 am

Hello all!
Ok here's the deal. I Like to take cad's that weren't mastered all that great and boost up the sound a bit. I use lots of diff plug ins and so far I really like Waves the best! Normally I just use L2 to boost up the sound and Type 1 dither using the normal setting.I've been doing lots of reading about dither and that's my first question. Can dither improve the sound quality of an already mastered cd when chances are they didn't use dither to it? Can it help at all? It seems to me that it does.
I'd like to use some compression to bring up the sound to give you that in your face feel.Second question, should I be using a Compressor or expander to do this and what plug in (and preset) in Waves would do this best?I normally use a ''touch'' of BBE Sonic Maximizer to enhance the Eq a bit and than use L2 in Waves to boost the overall sound. Is there something more I should be doing? Would converting the wave file to 32bit before I use L2 do anything?

What is your recipe for remastering a cd? Can some please write me up the perfect recipe for doing this?

here's a list of simple questions I have as well.

#1. Will converting the wave file from a cd to 32bit before doing anything to it and then reconverting it back to 16bit help?

#2. Can dither work its magic on a wave file from cd?

#3. If I'm going to apply an Eq, like from a good home stereo unit
to these songs, should I lower the threshold in L2 a bit to prevent clipping when its played back?

#4. What type of Compression can bring up the overall sound of the mix to give it that in your face feel.

Thanks to all who reply! Let me know your recipe
George

ozpeter · Location: Australia

Good grief, midnightcreeper, this is going to be a red rag to any number of bulls here! The starting problem will be your search for a 'recepie' - there isn't one, apart from gradual learning and listening and experimentation. It seems to me that you need to do some basic reading (though you do say you've been doing some, so that's a start) and get a better grip on some of the tools of the trade - download the Ozone mastering guide which has often been referred to here, visit the studiocovers site, search this forum for some of the subjects you are asking about, and so forth.

- Ozpeter

ozpeter · Location: Australia

Now trying to answer your questions:-

1 - Yes, this will give you a huge amount of dynamic range to play with at least.

2 - No.

3 - Applying eq, when boosting frequencies, is liable to add to the overall level almost by definition, so lowering the overall level is advisable - unless working in 32 bit and normalising at the end.

4 - Whatever is the right compression for the particular task in hand - you have to learn the effect of each available parameter and use your ears, and also some taste - does it have to be so much 'in your face'?

Those are my immediate reactions - I'm not the most technical minded person here so hopefully you'll get some additional advice in due course (though it's sometimes quiter here on weekends).

- Ozpeter

djwayne · Location: USA

As a dj, my recipe for remix is simple, there's no fixed recipe. It's all a matter of personal taste on a case by case basis. While dj'ing live, for the most part, I would run everything thru a Aphex Aural Exciter to liven up all the music, an eq to set the sound to the room if needed, a subwoofer to bring out the bass sounds, a compressor/limiter to help adjust volume levels between CD's, constant volume adjustments. It was my main goal to present the music as it was origanlly intended to be heard by the artist, and all the above effects were basically used to enhance my sound system to give optimum quality of sound. I never would add delay or reverb effects, speed or tempo changes, to blend beats. Some DJ's do. I don't. I like contrasting beats, fast paced songs and slow songs, and never had the desire to blend songs into each other. I was more like a "human jukebox", than someone altering songs. It worked for me.

I have done a re-mix of one song using a two-second delay, and have submitted it to the artist for approval. First responses have been positive. Smile

beetle · Location: USA

Tsk-tsk! Boosting the volume with compression/peak limiting/EQ is what's wrong with the record industry today. Also, having louder, or, "in-your-face" sound causes listener fatigue and makes the music uninteresting to listen to.

I just hope nightcreeper is using a good playback system to hear how he is damaging his sound. It won't be obvious on a cheap system, much less on PC speakers.

Many commercial CDs today are already dithered. #1 rule is that you never want to dither twice! If you do anything to a dithered file, it's best to not process or save it using any dither! The sound may be slightly thinner, but it is way preferable to double dither!

beetle · Location: USA

One more thing: if you are planning on "modernizing" older CDs made in the 80s, you are probably better off with them as they are. Why? Because more often than not, they transferred the tapes straight from the master tapes, so what you have is actually truer to the sound of the master tapes instead of them being dinked around with.

Newer is NOT always better.

Graeme · Member Location: Spain

Maybe it's just me, but.....

djwayne · Location: USA

Like I said the effects were used to enhance my sound system, Should I trash my great sounding system for a junky sounding system ?? Should I not strive to make CD's sound their best ?? Exactly what effects are allowable in your opinion ?? How should CD's be presented ?? Should I supply every one at a club with headphones ?? Or do I have to insist that all music I play be on vinyl, laquered disks, or wax cylinders for optimum listening pleasure ???? Last time I looked, they don't sell wax cylinder players for dj's or for car stereo's.

beetle · Location: USA

Honestly, djwayne, I think you are so used to hyped up sound with jacked up bass and treble in a club setting that you may have either forgotten what the actual recorded music sounds like, or you need a hearing test.

DeluXMan · Location: Canada

It's apples vs oranges again.
Dj'ing live has it's conventions which include
'if it sounds good then do it'

Graeme · Member Location: Spain

djwayne · Location: USA

Honestly beetle, I don't think you know what you're talking about. Have you ever dj'ed or heard a dj with a weak sound system ?? I have, and guess what, the club was empty. I've been to enough concerts and live gigs to know exactly what musicains sound like. Without proper tweaking & sound re-inforcement, they sound like crap. They want it to sound good. What's a matter, you don't like bass sounds ?? The sub-woofer help to accurately reproduce them. I'm not talking about thumping rap music either. Cello's, kick drums, kettle drums, stand up bass, all sound great and very natural, with a sub. You don't like horns either ?? Cymbols sound great thru horns. I'd like to see your ideal setup, a couple of 4"-8" speakers ?? Let's hear your recommendations.

Graeme · Member Location: Spain

djwayne · Location: USA

All the stuff at the end is to enhance the basic system, not the individual recording. The compressor/limiter was basiacally used as speaker protection, as CD volume levels vary drastically, between cd's. Do an A-B test with a Aural Exciter or a BBE Sonic Maximizer sometime. There's a huge difference in sound quality.
Even some CD's would required EQ adjustments, do to their individual mixes. It's a constant changing thing when you're constantly changing CD's, while dj'ing in a live situation. It's a constant battle to keep on top of the sound, because once it's starts sounding too bright, too muddy, too loud, not loud enough, people walk out. I managed to keep people in the clubs till closing, whereas the other dj with the weak system, couldn't keep people in the club for 10 minutes. One artist I was playing one time, his business partner was there, and approved of the way the music sounded with no problem, he even suggested a minor EQ adjustment, but was satisified with the way the music was presented and sounded.

Try dj'ing for a couple of years, and you'll understand what I'm talking about.

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

I know it's going to sound a bit odd, and perhaps not quite what you might expect from me on this subject, but I don't think that djwayne is necessarily that far out... let's consider:

djwayne · Location: USA

Some clubs and bands would play extremely loud, but I didn't want that. I kept the volume levels loud enough to sound good, but people were still able to carry on conversations. Hearing damage was something I did NOT want to inflict on anybody, and even checked my levels with a sound meter. We had one band that played there at 125 decibels. They got fired.
I was playing a lot of acoustic stuff mixed with rock, pop & dance, and volume levels changed drastically between songs. If you played a really soft song then go into a rock song your volume level would be really high, and I didn't want to blow out my speakers. The Aphex Aural Exciter and sub-woofer were no-brainers after the A-B test.

Graeme · Member Location: Spain

I think I'm being misunderstood here. I'm not saying that this might not be a good thing to do in a club. However, I am saying that the end sound is not what was intended by the artist, nor could it be in any way considered to be optimal quality.

Ergo - I still find the original two statements at total odds with each other.

djwayne · Location: USA

Well if it 's not good enough for your pompous --- then too bad for you. It worked for us. The music sounded great and not one musician complained, and there were plenty of musicians there. Even other dj's and club owners used to come and hang out till closing. Of course the other dj's were trying to steal my gig. they were just as bad as the other dj I was talking about. Heck, he even was playing recordings from cassette tapes, and was all mids & hiss. My CD's with my system sounded clean. Imagine requesting a song, and watching the dj trying to locate it for you on the cassette player. "I'll have it in a second just wait !!" Fast forward, fast forward, rewind, start from somewhere near the beginning of the song. "Ah here it is." Then two minutes dead air while he locates the next song. No wonder people walked out on him.

Graeme · Member Location: Spain

post78 · Location: USA

I agree with Graeme, on all points.

VoodooRadio · Location: USA

djwayne · Location: USA

Personl attacks- Oh I'm deaf because I add a Aural exciter,

Don't know what music is supposed to sound like. Gee Doesn't that imply I'm a moron ??

Using a compressor/limiter to safegaurd my speakers is bad ?? I must not try to protect my speakers in the future ??

I'm not permited to eq music ?? that's a no-no to please you ??

I'm not buying it guys- You weren't even there to hear what it sound like, had no concept of the speakers or the venue, but feel the need and right to trash my efforts no matter what I say. Who's attacking who ??

I stand by my words.

AutoGhash · Location: Canada

As I understand it:

Graeme's arguement is not that one should not do all of the things DJwayne mentioned. He's simply pointing out that if you alter the sound, it's not being heard how the artist meant it to be heard. That's the contradictory statement and I agree with it.

However, as Steve says, a club is not your living room. It's huge, with harder surfaces (usually) and lots of people soaking up the sound. So it might be necessary to change the sound in order to make it sound like you're in your living room again. ALSO, a lot of people (at least, anyone trying to sell a CD commercially) *plan* for their CDs to be played through "candy systems" that add a lot of low and high end. So you're gonna have to EQ in order to turn your awesome flat response speakers into candy speakers.

Wayne, nobody's saying you're a bad DJ. They're just pointing out that altering a sound with exciters and stuff is just that: an alteration. That means YOU have to make the call about how the CD will sound, not the artist. But that's what DJs do.

beetle · Location: USA

beetle · Location: USA

beetle · Location: USA

djwayne · Location: USA

beetle · Location: USA

djwayne · Location: USA

Why you must be blind or don't know how to read. I did point it out. Didn't you say you were going away ?? Well go away then already !!

Musicians eq their stuff all the time, why ?? To make it sound better. Yeaaaaa !!!!

Grow some brains dude.

Pro_Support · Posted - Mon Jun 23, 2003 5:33 pm

I think it's time to lock this topic and let it die...