Syntrillium Backup Forums :: View topic - 5.1 monitoring speakers- Whatcha using ???

djwayne · Location: USA

Seeing how there's the great debate raging on about using home speakers vrs studio monitors, what do you guys recommend for the 5.1 mixing system ?? Should we throw all caution to the wind, and buy a "home" 5.1 speaker set ?? or buy five studio monitors ?? how 'bout studio subs ??

Here's what I'm planning on using-

Front speakers- 12" Yamaha 3-way cabinets & NS-10's

Rear Speakers- BOSE bookshelf speakers, Model 21, small three-way.

Sub-woofer- Either a passive stereo Peavey Impulse sub or a powered Kenwood with a 10" woofer & port

Center channel- ?? undecided and open for suggestions. Looking at Yamaha, BOSE, or ??? whatever

So far with the front and rear speakers, and Peavy Sub,the system sounds great, the Kenwood would shake my windows out, and cause the neighbors to call the cops, so what should I use for center channel ?? I'm thinking maybe something very small, but will have a presence.

VoodooRadio · Location: USA

I had the pleasure of listening to an all Event BAS system compete with Event sub. Expensive? Yes. Awesome? Definitely!! Personally, I don't see myself delving off into surround for awhile yet. Fortunately for me, by the time I do (if I do) the systems will be past the "novelty" stage and be both more abundant and less expensive. Sometimes, the slow horse does win the race! Wink

djwayne · Location: USA

I'm just experimenting with it, with speakers and amps I have laying around that I've accumulated over the years, and I would encourage you to do the same. It's more than a novely, it sounds great and is a definite improvemnet in overall sound of just the stereo format. I haven't got a sound card yet so I'm still in the speaker placement, and amp wiring phase. Looking at center speakers ect...but just having the rear speakers really already made a bigger difference than I thought it would. With the sub, it all sounds much better than the quadrophonic stuff I had back in the 70's.

I heard a Polk system last night that sounded awesome, but it was big bucks... but I like the idea of being able to mix into the 5.1 format, and maybe even into the 7.1 format someday.

I think it's better to have it, than not to have it.

VoodooRadio · Location: USA

I didn't mean "novelty" as in.... the entire technology and process is novel. I was alluding to the fact that IMO, it's still in it's infancy and there are not alot of manufacturers addressing the needs. The one's that are, (as usual) have driven the price to absorbant levels. After the "newness" (that's probably a better term) wears, I expect to see more manufacturers in the market place and because of the availability... a reduction in the cost. That is probably when I'll consider buying in.

Havoc · Posted - Sat Apr 26, 2003 11:41 am

Guess it depends a bit on what you want to mix on it. For music only I would go for 5 identical speakers. If you want to use the rear for effects and the center for voice something simpler could be enough. Not so keen on subs myself.

I plan to experiment one day, but there is more to be done before that. Would also use whatever is around first.

jonrose · Location: USA

People will scoff at this, because these are old monitors...

I'm using 5 EV MS802s and a (new) Mackie sub, with bass-management options provided by a friend who designed a monitoring box for me.

Why the MS802s? Because I've known their sound for many years, almost as long as they've been around. When you find something that works, you stick with it... :)

Just as an aside (and I'm not... repeat, NOT advocating the use of these things for actual monitoring!!!) - Check out the new Alesis 5.1 system. This could turn out to be a very inexpensive way for small studios to have a way to check their mixes "in the real world" on another system, without breaking the bank. It offers a sub and 5 satellite speakers and enough power to drive them, all for less than $400US. Once again, this is NOT for mixing, just checking mixes.

I'd also concur with Havoc's opinion, on the point concerning source program material - if I'm mixing music, I'm using identical speakers.

Best... -Jon

djwayne · Location: USA

Hmmm... I'm thinking that as long as you have your channel's eq'ed on the main mixing monitors they way you want, they should be okay, and just use the other speakers for a basic reference on volume & panning, which will probably be reset by the used anyhow. Sooo I'm planning on mixing EQ's and basic effetcs on the two front main speakers, then just sending them to the others for a reference check, and to see how the sub will sound, and then make any needed EQ adjustments on the sub there, and just use the other speakers for basic panning reference.

I like the idea of a second setup to double check how it will sound "in the real world". But here again, how do you transfer it from one system to another ???? CDR, DVD, Hi-8..It's not like popping a cd into various cd players for reference. I know it can be mixed to a WMA9 file, but how do you get that into a second stereo, without using a second computer ???

jonrose · Location: USA

Simply, by using a Patchbay, different busses out of a desk, a switchbox, whatever. All you have to do is feed the line level signals to the other setup if it's active, as the Alesis system is. Or, if you have all passive monitors, you could use speaker switch-boxes to do the change-over.

If you are saying that you are correctively EQ'ing your system's front channels to a pre-deterimined value prior to mixing, I'd advise not using very much EQ, maybe only a couple of dB at most. The resultant phase shifts can destroy accuracy pretty badly. Remember that the purpose of monitors is not necessarily to sound good, but to be accurate, so that mixes can translate to the greatest number of other systems. And of course, that's what the "real-world" setup is for - just another "outside" reference point to keep you on track.

Be careful with bass management. This is a frequently misunderstood concept.

And keep in mind that many systems will 'fold' a 5.1 mix down to stereo, so if it's not mixed correctly, you can either blow speakers or not have very good imaging. Check in mono, too!

Best... -Jon

djwayne · Location: USA

Exactly, I think the "folddown" mix would be most important, then using the other speakers to un-fold with, should be the way to go. I'd want to know how a sub is going to sound with or without a 5.1 setup.

I know I could repatch in my studio to another set of speakers, but I would prefer to hear things in a seperate room on a completely seperate system, for reference. and getting it from one system to another is my main concern at this point which media would work best, and be available to the majority of people ?? I'm thinking DVD would be available to many as the prices are reasonable, but what dvd writing software will be the best for 5.1 reproduction that will also have the fold down capability, work with WMA9 files, and or be compatible with Cool Edit Pro 2.1 ?? These are the things I'm working on now, to make a 5.1 mix available.

VoodooRadio · Location: USA

jonrose · Location: USA

VoodooRadio · Location: USA

How bout.... two computers "networked" together, with their own playback systems? Shy

djwayne · Location: USA

No, you're missing the point, what if I want to bring it to my buddy's house 50 miles away, and listen to it on his system ?? or to another person's house across town ?? I have to have some way of transferring the mix on preferably a DVD. What if I want to snail mail a recording to another country, or fans in another state ?? From what I've read, DVD's are the way to go with a 5.1 mix. I don't know enough about them to understand how I would go about putting a WMA9 file on to them, so that I can transfer the recording out of my studio, but test it on a different setup, before I send it out. I'd hate to send out an important demo to somebody, only to have it not work on their system.

The DVD-R's seem to be the wave of the future according to a few articles I've read, because of their ability to record in a 5.1 format, and hold video or slides, and other visual information as well as audio. SOOOO we'll need DVD burning software & hardware, instead of CD burners & software, yes ?? no ?? and deal with all the same compatibility issues between units, as cd burners. If 5.1 is gonna succeed, it has to be easy & affordable. You shouldn't have to have a college degree in music production, to transfer music to people who are still trying to learn how to set their clocks on the VCR.

jonrose · Location: USA

djwayne · Location: USA

I am getting my work done, slowly, one step at a time. I'm already in the process of re-designing my studio, and have put in the wiring for the rear speakers. Currently looking for a center channel speaker, and necessary cabling to enable me to control the system from the mixing board, and run into the DA-88, until the DVD recording capabilities are available. I don't have to ave that today, but am looking down the road. I was thinking about a new CDRW, but with this system, a DVD recorder makes more sense. Who knows, cheap DVD recording software make become available anytime. I'm also doing alot of reading up on DVD's and the 5.1 system, and it seems to be a popular thing with many people, and it seems it's still in it's infancy now. Sooooo in a couple of years from now, it may be the industry standard. I appreciate the conversation and your thoughts on this, as the 5.1 system is new to me, and I'm just learning about it now. Even though it looks simple, it's a different mixing format, with different details, that have to be ironed out, has to be done right, and within my skimpy budget, but I am making progress.

MusicConductor · Location: USA

I think some format clarification is in order.

As we've discussed in another thread, the least expensive way to make a 5.1 mix portable without a computer being involved in playback is to buy Minnetonka's SurCode for DTS ($500) and make an audio CD that has DTS data instead of linear PCM audio. These CDs play on any DTS receiver with a digital connection from the player. Or, I suppose, djwayne could haul his DA-88 to his buddy's house--that wouldn't cost anything!

The least expensive way to make a 5.1 mix portable with a computer is obviously WMA9 played back on WinXP or opened in MV in CEP2.1, since it's free. Making these portable is as simple as writing a CD-ROM.

Neither of these formats requires the storage capacity or sound formatting of DVD, which is getting cheaper by the day but still costs more than CDs. Furthermore, if you want to author a DVD with 5.1 audio, you'll be paying a fortune for professional authoring software. Consumer DVD software intentionally supports 2.0 PCM or Dolby Digital audio only, and a hefty license fee is its cost. Perhaps Sonic Foundry's SoftCode offers some hope in this instance--I don't know--but you'd still have the problem of multiplexing its AC-3 output files with video to even get a DVD player to recognize it. Djwayne, I can't imagine you want the hassles of all of this.

The other method of writing 5.1 to a DVD is to do it in DVD-Audio format with a tool such as Minnetonka's DiscWelder Steel. At least then there's no Dolby or DTS license cost built in (not that DiscWelder is cheap). But then you have to find the rare DVD-Audio player that can even read it, and the odds are that a given system you'd want to try your mix on won't have that capability.

I appreciate your enthusiasm, djwayne, and hope you find a practical solution to all of this that fits your aspirations as well as your budget!

djwayne · Location: USA

So you can put a WMA File onto a CDR ?? That would be great !! and solve all the problems, except for one, how would you play it back ?? Would it have to be on a CD or DVD player that can play 6 channels, yes ?? (Assuming the second player is not a computer with CEP 2.1 installed on it.) I haven't heard of any 6-channel cd players yet.

I am making a little progress each day. Last night I bought a center channel speaker that has some similarities to the rest of my system. It has 2-4" speakers and a dome tweeter, and the seller says it sounds great, I bought it off E-Bay, so that remains to be seen, or heard. If it doesn't sound good I'll replace the speakers, with a better quality speaker, but according to the specs sheet I saw, and it's basic design, it should be okay, and I'm only planning on using it at very low volume anyhow, more of just a filler.

I tried switching around amplifiers with the rear speakers, to see if there was any difference, and yes there is. The Carver sounds great and the Kenwood sounds real bassy, so I'll use the Kenwood for the sub & center channel, until I get a better amp. It sounds okay with a Harmon-Kardon speaker acting as a center channel speaker, but sounds terrible with the BOSE speakers. The Carver amp and Bose speakers sound good together.
I have managed to find a way to squeeze 8 channels from the mixing board to control the outputs from the planned 7.1 card. Also found a permanent place to store the 2 extra amps. Next step is to cable them up to the mixing board and permanent wire the speakers, so when I get the new sound card, all I have to do is plug it in.

I did a bunch of sound checks using these speakers, just hooked up to stereo mix, and it all sounds really nice together, and well worth the extra effort. The 5.1 system fills the whole room up with sound, and it sounds much better than I expected.

VoodooRadio · Location: USA

MusicConductor · Location: USA

djwayne · Location: USA

Hey VOODOO, Thanks, Those are a fantasic set of articles, answered many of my questions, it seems what I'll be looking for is a DVD-A unit at some point in the future. But for now they had some very good points on setting up speakers, and level settings. I read most of the articles, but glanced over a couple of pages and need to go back, there's alot of great info there for anyone who wants to learn about 5.1.

Mixonline has a few articles also worth reading, but nothing as extensive as this, Thanks !!!!

VoodooRadio · Location: USA

Yer Welcome! As you can probably see by now.... to do it right will require alot of research, tackling a "new" learning curve and a Boat load of $$$. That's why I'm not particularly in a hurry to jump in with both feet. Shy

djwayne · Location: USA

That's why I'm doing it like I am, I don't want to have to go into debt, re-finance the house ect... to set up a 5.1 system. Just by using old amps and speakers I already had, my total cost to start mixing to 5.1, should be under $150. (Soundcard & Center channel speaker) I've got enough cables and wire ect, the amps and speakers sound good together too. I'm in no rush to send any mixes out just yet as I haven't made any yet, and won't until after I get the sound card 2-3 weeks at best. But just getting the leg work and wiring done is good enough for me right now. Nobody I know, that I can think of, has a 5.1 system anyhow. Most people I talk to about it, never even heard of it. So there's no real big rush other than for my own listening. It does sound good though, but now I'll have to re-setup my room with the real time analizer, as my flat response from my mains is all messed up with the new speakers. Running my channels thru the Mackie, will allow me to adjust eq's to get a fairly flat response on each channel, and bring the speakers more inline with each other. It sounds like a lot of work, but it already sounds really good, and should sound even better. Once you get into it, there's no going back. Cool Edit's panning software is like having automation on the levels and panning. Fantastic !!!!!!!

the3jsgrve · Location: USA

Great post... I've got a ton of learning ahead!

Around here, there are several studios that record bands, so I have some competition there. There are also some multimedia advertising places that are doing commercials and such. I'm trying to fit in by offering a creative edge that others don't have. If I could add "5.1 Digital Surround Sound" to my list of advertised tools, I would imagine that it could stir up some interest just because nobody else is doing it. However, at this price, it will have to wait. If anybody comes up with a more affordable way to do this stuff, please post it! I'd love to know!

In the mean time, I suppose I will work on piecing components together bit by bit.

Voodoo, I looked at Event's 5.1 system you mentioned online, and I'm a bit confused. It appears to be just a subwoofer with ins and outs for all 5 other channels. If it doesn't power the other speakers, what is the point of running the channels through the sub first? Is it just a crossover or does it do more than that?

Thanks everyone,
Josh

PS: There is a single Alesis Monitor One and a single Event 20/20 BAS for sale on eBay for those of you who may be interested in purchasing a good center speaker.

the3jsgrve · Location: USA

One other question if anyone knows: can my Layla20 be used for 5.1 mixing? It has 10 outs, so can I somehow use six of them for the six speaker sends, or do I need to buy a different sound card?

Thanks,
Josh

MusicConductor · Location: USA

It can be used for 5.1 if by doing nothing other than hard-assigning channels in Multitrack View to various pairs on the Layla. But that is definitely the poor-man's surround mix method.

The real matter is whether or not Layla comes with a "multichannel driver" compatible with CEP2.1's MCE (and you have the most recent driver, right?). My suggestion is, if you haven't already, to have a look at the MCE documentation at

http://support.syntrillium.com/cep/docs.html

with special attention given to the system requirements. A fine card such as Layla is likely to have the support you need!

Syntrillium M.D. · Location: USA

To Josh - Yes, the 20-bit Laylas will support the 'multichannel' driver option that Music is referring to. I'm not sure which driver version to use (probably the latest driver update) and you may want to contact Echo to get the skinny on setting it up correctly, but as far as I know, you can use CEP2.1's MCE with them.

To djwayne - oh boy, where to begin. The short end of the story is simply this: if you're ever going to mix in 5.1 (and, actually plan on creating something that will sound good on a multitude of systems) you've got to use like-speakers.

Yes, there are exceptions where you can use different variations in the rear. But mixing brands as diverse as Bose and Yamaha (NS10 especially!) is not going to bode well for your mixes; and no matter how much you 'pre-EQ' the signal chain, (especially with different amps powering the different speakers) your 5.1 mix won't translate well to other systems.

I'm not trying to discourage the exploration - I strongly encourage it. Smile

But it would seem that this needs to be said firmly, and understanding that will re-direct your path (intelligently) later on down the line.

---Syntrillium, M.D.

jonrose · Location: USA

Hi Josh,

I still have two Layla 20s in use here.

Even the (beta) WDM driver for WinME/2K etc. it will allow you to create a "super-channel" (grouping) of six, for 5.1 use (driver v6.05 - but be careful, as there's a driver for the 24-bit cards with the exact same number in the archives, so take care with what you're downloading).

I'd warn you that this comes with a very different virtual control surface, that you'll have to get used to. There are a few improvements. But, one drawback is that you can't really maximize or re-size it like you could with the old one, , nor will it's window position "stick" when you close it - you'll have to open and drag it to the other monitor or wherever you like it to be. Another downer is the input trims, which are no longer "fader-style" - they're knobs, but you can type in values, at least, by right-clicking on the indicator fields.

Also unlike the old mixer panel, it does have a pan on each input, so you can send a single input to either the left or right bus, or both, which is handy sometimes when cue-mixing mono inputs. There are buttons to choose each output meter pair, instead of having all displayed at once. The meters also have somewhat useful graduation markings, whereas the old mixer didn't have any.

Just a bit of what you can expect if you want to try it. Some good, some bad.
;)

Best... -Jon

djwayne · Location: USA

Well , where to begin, like I said, first off, the satelite speakers are only to be used for basic level & spacial adjustments, any tonal mixing is done on the same monitors I use for any stereo mix, which I believe will transfer well, because they are adjusted for a very flat response. But here again, if your monitors don't reproduce the entire audio spectrum, you might as well be mixing deaf, because you'll have no clue on how your mix will effect a sub when it finally does get put thru one. With white noise and the analizer I've seen on the graph where my system is putting out a fairly flat response across the entire spectrum, without any major weak areas, I feel a must for being able to mix. If ya can't hear it, how ya gonna mix it ???? The NS-10 is like the king who had no clothes, everybody says it's wonderful, but the truth is on it's own, it's a lousy sounding speaker, and when people say it's a reference speaker, what they mean is that the majority of studios decided a long time ago to get one speaker that they could all use as a "reference" point, because everybody's studio was using different systems, and it was a choice between the NS-10 and a Aurora tone. I would never mix soley on a NS10, but some people swear by them. I swear at them, as they have no low end, they die out at about 100 hertz. So in my opinion, they need a boost in the lower end to make them workable, and that's why I use the 12" Yamaha three way cabinet, which is very similar to a NS-10 with a 12" speaker. The combination of that & the passive sub work out very well for me, and produce a flat response over the entire spectrum, in my opinion, the perfect stereo mixing enviorment.
Now here's where it gets tricky, when unfolding to the 5.1 system, the extra speakers are there just to give a positional idea of where to put things in the circle of speakers. Today I ran the white noise thru the additional speakers and eq'ed them to get the best flat response I could, compensating for the different amplifiers as well, with level adjustment and eq adjustments on the main mixing board, so now everything is putting out a fairly flat response. So now it's just a matter of adjusting levels, to compensate for the different amps. It's really surprising me on how well the Bose & Yamaha speakers are flowing together to fill the entire room with a very natural high quality sound. For more experiments I added a Kenwood powered sub-woofer with a 10" speaker, which is way more than the room needs but when properly adjusted sounds very nice, and adds a real rich sound to the overall mix. None of the speakers seem to stand out, it's just a great sound that fills the entire room.
The way I feel about it is, if I can't get it to sound great here, it won't sound good anywhere. I think any studio should be the best sounding sound system in town, and when you play anything you've recorded back, it's got to sound great. But even still, the 5.1 will fold back into stereo and still has to sound good in stereo, and on a cheap boom box, as in reality, that's where most of the music will be heard. So after mixing to the 5.1, you have to fold it back into stereo to see what it'll sound like there, and on the cheapo junky boom box, and make any final adjustments, before I'd consider releasing it. Like I said the recording studio should have the best sounding system in town, and it's up to the consumers to match it. I can't control what other people choose as their sound system or listening device. Most people are more interested in selection rather than highest bit rate, and are quite content with MP3 quality sound, as long as they have access to a great selection of music.
With all that said, the other point is that my system is the best I can afford at this time. I have no intentions of buying 5 JBL 4412A's to monitor my 5.1 system. I'm not gonna run out and buy a six channel amplifier, three stereo eq's, or even a dvd player until I see a realistic market for recouping my investment, and at this time, I don't see it. Look at the discussions we had about radio programming a couple of weeks ago, the radio station's formats & playlists are locked to independent musicians, and only a select few signed artists get airplay. I'm setting up my 5.1 system to get familiar with it as I may have a need for it, in the not so distant future. I would like to put out 5.1 recordings, but the recording & playback of the DVD/A technologies are just out of my budget at this time. Even the online music delivery systems are all geared for MP3's, and not 5.1 yet. So until Warner Bros or some other studio calls, I won't be mixing music for movies, but more for my own files. I think the 5.1 platform is great, still in it's infancy, but a growing trend. So that's why I'm doing what I'm doing with 5.1., and being able to do that with a total out of pocket cost of under $150, makes it a fun project for me. Big Grin

I haven't totaled up what my entire system would cost to replace it, I'm just using what I already have, save for the center channel speaker and sound card, and doing a little wiring work & sound checks. What makes it fun though, is it sounds great !!!!!!!

VoodooRadio · Location: USA

The Auratone (cubes) have a reputation of.... if you can make it sound decent on them, it'll transfer to pretty much anything. I had a pair years ago that I used for referencing mixes. Somewhere along the way, I inadvertently managed to get rid of them. I actually wish I still had them. But.... not enough to buy another pair!! Shock

djwayne · Location: USA

Speaking of cubes, I just saw a 5.1 "matching" set of speakers with a DVD player at Tiger direct for $99. I suppose I could get something like that for a secondary system, but for now I'll keep my real speakers, with wood cabinets. Something about plastic cubes and 18-22 gauge wire tells me, it may not sound very good, but who knows with modern technology ?? But they are a matched system.

The great thing about Syntrillium's 5.1 system is you have 6 discreet channels, none of that Dolby hocus pocus digital magic delay stuff.

djwayne · Location: USA

With regards to the 12" Yamaha cabinets I'm using. I checked the spec sheet on them and hello, big surprise, the cabinets we're specifically designed to be used as the main monitors in a 5.1 or surround system, by Yamaha !!! Their frequency response is 40-20,000. They are advertised as Home Theater Speakers.

The Bose Model 21's, I haven't found any info on them yet. But in the white noise/ eq test I did on them, run with the Carver amp, was really easy to get a flat response out of, with no special eq'ing needed, and work really well as satellite speakers.

The Kenwood amp & HK, however, needed extreme eq adjustments to cut out the lower mid and low end to get anywhere near a flat response. Since doing that, the sound is very accptable, but will change once I get the new center-channel speaker.

The Kenwood powered sub, is a model SW-300, which also has an adjustable low pass crossover that varies from 0 to 200 hertz, I have it set for 100 hertz, and it really cleans up the bass sound, and makes the bass sound as if the bass player was in the same room !!

I'm not gonna apologize for my mis-matched system. It sounds too good !!!

MusicConductor · Location: USA

Any 5.1 system for $99 can't be depended on for anything, let alone checking a mix to see if it will translate well elsewhere.
Dj, it's your system. I'm glad you think it sounds great, and there are some instances where I've heard mismatched speakers work extremely well--like, the speakers sound and behave very similarly. I've also tried to mix on a mismatched system and found all my 4-channel balances constantly wrong one way or another when played back in a better environment. Do not discount the warnings you've been given--and the one about phase distortion as well if you do EQ for speaker matching--and see how close you can get with the equipment you have.

I seems to me like you're not equipped to hear true 5.1 material yet. Does this mean you're routing a stereo feed to both the front and rear speakers at the same time (sort of like a car stereo?) If so, that is no criteria for whether your system will sound good in 5.1. The reason is, once you put different information in the front and rear, if the tonal characteristics of the two are different, then your balances will always be veering off one way or the other depending on your audio. And that just simply sucks.

And I have no idea what you mean by "The great thing about Syntrillium's 5.1 system is you have 6 discreet channels, none of that Dolby hocus pocus digital magic delay stuff." Dolby Digital AC-3 is as discreet as anything is discreet, including CEP's encoder, and no delays are used whatsoever. Perhaps you're thinking of Dolby ProLogic, which does use delays and decorrelation for the rear channels, and as I've said many times, the inferiority of matrixed surround is more than obvious once you hear "the real thing."

djwayne · Location: USA

EdRadio · Posted - Tue Apr 29, 2003 11:46 am

djwayne · Location: USA

Master Po · Posted - Tue Apr 29, 2003 3:57 pm

Syntrillium M.D. · Location: USA