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dkris
Posts: 10
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 Posted - Tue Apr 22, 2003 9:42 am
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I am attempting to dub an old Billy Joel vinyl album over to digital using CE2K. I am running into a record level issue: even tho I have the gain on the Windows Mixer all the way to the bottom, the record level is still going into the red zone. I have not had a problem with other albums.
Can anyone suggest a fix?
Is this really something to worry about? In my previous experience of dubbing my albums over to cassettes (too many years ago), the tape and equipment manufacturers used to tell us to push the levels into the red for brief periods.
Connection info: My turntable is connected to a stereo receiver, I use the TAPE OUT to connect to the input on the sound card.
thank you!
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zemlin
Location: USA
Posts: 1156
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Posted - Tue Apr 22, 2003 10:00 am
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Make sure you are using the LINE in and not the MIC in on your sound card.
YES, seeing red is something to worry about. The resulting recording will be clipped.
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dkris
Posts: 10
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Posted - Tue Apr 22, 2003 11:06 am
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oh, how I wish it was that simple ... good suggestion tho
yes, I am connected to the LINE IN, and not the microphone connection.
D
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Bobbsy
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 327
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Posted - Tue Apr 22, 2003 11:24 am
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Just to expand on what Zemlin said, metering is handled and calibrated differently on digital recording. While you had varying degrees of "head room" above zero level in analogue, in Cool Edit (and pretty well any other digital system) zero is the absolute maximum level you can handled without clipping. To make matters worse, analogue clipping could come on "gently" but digital clipping is never pretty.
With professional digital systems the standard it to set them up with -18 dB being equivalent to the zero level on a VU metre or PPM. I must admit to "pushing it" with my headroom a bit more than this when working in CEP, but this gives you an idea of how things are done professionally.
BTW, it also sound to me like you could be into the Mic input rather than line. I hate those little graphics symbols which never mean anything to me and never line up the their sockets!
Bob
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Graeme
Member
Location: Spain
Posts: 4663
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Posted - Tue Apr 22, 2003 1:44 pm
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The throw-away remark, which made me wonder about all this, was that it only happens on this one album - now, that's really odd!
Given that you don't have this problem with other records, what's different with this one? Is it badly damaged? If so, maybe what you are seeing are the high amplitude click causing clipping.
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SteveG
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 6695
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Posted - Tue Apr 22, 2003 3:27 pm
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| Bobbsy wrote: |
| With professional digital systems the standard it to set them up with -18 dB being equivalent to the zero level on a VU metre or PPM. I must admit to "pushing it" with my headroom a bit more than this when working in CEP, but this gives you an idea of how things are done professionally. |
I always thought that this was a bit on the conservative side. If you have PPM4 (0dB) set at -18dB, that means that you will still have nearly 6dB of headroom left when the PPM is banging on the end stops! (that's PPM7 and a bit...)
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dkris
Posts: 10
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Posted - Wed Apr 23, 2003 3:26 pm
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Thanks for the input, unfortunately no joy yet on my side.
I am definitely plugged into the LINE IN connection on the sound card. I double and triple checked to make sure. (more below)
Right from my first project with CE2K, I had noted that I had very little room to work with on the gain control on the Windows Mixer. Typically I have the dial only very slightly above the first marking on the scale. Usually this was fine, with all my dubbing to date, I was running the VU up to the -3 dB mark, and never beyond ('cept for the odd pop, which is obviously easily dealt with). But I never had much margin for error.
So now this Billy Joel album is causing me to get to the bottom of the entire mess. To respond to the question on "why this album", I can only guess that it has something to do with the piano notes. Back to my old dubbing to analog tape days, I recall that I always had to back off on the gain a bit when dubbing an album with heavy piano. (Maybe one of the pros out there can comment on that.)
Now back to the question on the MIC vs LINE connection. Just to make sure that the card is not mis-marked, I switched inputs ... and got the same symptoms ... very little margin for error with the gain control. I see no difference between the MIC input and the LINE input.
Might it be time to invest in a better sound card? The PC is a brand new Dell, but I did scrimp on the sound card, since I was not too thrlled with the choices presented by Dell.
Or is this potentially something with my audio gear? The phono cartridge is an Ortofon moving coil unit, which does have a high output, as there is a in-line step-up device between the turntable and the amp.
any suggestions are certainly appreciated ...
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Bobbsy
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 327
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Posted - Wed Apr 23, 2003 4:31 pm
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| SteveG wrote: |
| [brI always thought that this was a bit on the conservative side. If you have PPM4 (0dB) set at -18dB, that means that you will still have nearly 6dB of headroom left when the PPM is banging on the end stops! (that's PPM7 and a bit...) |
Yeah, agreed. The situation was even worse the last couple of places I worked...because our product was distributed on a digitally compressed satellite which was into distortion by +12/PPM 7, we used to have a self imposed in-house standard of no peaks above PPM 6. Lots of wasted headroom. And, to top it off, it was hard to calibrate to -18 anyhow since Sony didn't include that number on the scales of their bar graph metres.
Bob
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DrSlack
Posts: 64
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Posted - Wed Apr 23, 2003 5:43 pm
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are you adjusting your windows PLAYBACK volume or RECORDING volume?
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ozpeter
Location: Australia
Posts: 3200
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Posted - Wed Apr 23, 2003 7:01 pm
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... and are you saying that if you take off this album now, and put on a different one, right away the problem goes? Is this one warped by any chance?
- Ozpeter
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rpc9943
Location: USA
Posts: 72
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Posted - Wed Apr 23, 2003 7:08 pm
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lol i was going to ask the same question.
make sure youre adjusting the recording volume not play.
i BET thats the problem, SIMPLY SOLVED.
ron cavagnaro
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OBuckley
Posts: 139
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Posted - Thu Apr 24, 2003 3:40 am
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If one of the earlier suggestions solves the problem, so much the better. This particularly assumes that the Recording Level in the Windows mixer does not work (i.e. basically the ADC in the sound card takes its input before the Windows mixer gets to the sound). The other way is not to use the Tape Output, which may be at too high a level for your sound card. How easy this is depends on your receiver. We take it this is a single integrated unit with no pre-amp output. Use the pre-amp output if there is one, as this level will be driven by the volume control on the amp. Otherwise, prepare to get a bit messy. Get inside the receiver and solder a twin shielded cable to each channel of the volume control. A volume control has three connections for each channel. Signal input, signal output (reduced by the position of the control) and ground (in and out connected together). Solder the shielding of the cable to the ground point of the volume control and the signal wire of the cable to the signal output point of the volume control. Do this for both L and R channels. Run the cable outside the box of the receiver (there's usually a way) and solder both cables (left channel and right channel) to RCA sockets. Connect this to your sound card. Now when you adjust the volume on your receiver, you adjust the strength of signal going into your sound card.
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zemlin
Location: USA
Posts: 1156
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Posted - Thu Apr 24, 2003 4:11 am
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Can you route it through the ins and outs of a tape deck set to record - use the tape record level to adjust the level?
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dkris
Posts: 10
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Posted - Thu Apr 24, 2003 5:38 am
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Those are 2 good suggestions!
1. OBuckley, could I not get the same result if I simply used the headphone out jack on the receiver? Anyway, I believe this receiver has a pre-amp out. I will check that.
2. Zemlin, I will try your suggstion also. I do still have a cassette deck attached to this stereo rig ... even tho it has not been fired up in a few years ...
As to the other questions:
1. Yes, I am using the Mixer when set on RECORDING and not PLAYBACK. Besides, when the mixer is set on PLAYBACK it has zero effect on the line level when recording. I know 'coz I did this by accident one day ...
2. Ozpeter: No the album is not warped. What I am saying is that I *barely* nudge the gain from the lower most setting on the scale to achieve the proper recording level. I have only dubbed about a dozen or so vinyl albums using CE2K, and this album is simply the first time that I ran into the problem with over driving the recording levels. I am sure that I will see the problem again, especially as I attempt to dub other albums with a high saturation level ... I simply don't have any granularity on the gain control to work with.
BTW ... are there any 3rd party products out there that offer an alternative to the Windows mixer?
Thank you again for the comments!
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zemlin
Location: USA
Posts: 1156
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Posted - Thu Apr 24, 2003 6:03 am
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| dkris wrote: |
| Anyway, I believe this receiver has a pre-amp out. I will check that. |
If you have a preamp out, I'd use that instead of a tape deck. Easier, and a shorter signal path. Just make sure all tone/loudness etc. are set neutral.
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Graeme
Member
Location: Spain
Posts: 4663
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Posted - Thu Apr 24, 2003 10:03 am
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| dkris wrote: |
| BTW ... are there any 3rd party products out there that offer an alternative to the Windows mixer? |
You could have a look at www.audiosliders.com - I wasn't madly keen, but it may suit you fine.
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RossW
Location: USA
Posts: 214
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Posted - Thu Apr 24, 2003 11:19 am
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Far be it for me to spoil someone's fun with figuring out this problem, but I'm surprised no one has asked you why you don't just get the CD version? Surely everything by Billy Joel (® registered trademark of Sony, or somesuch... can you believe it?) has been re-issued by now, several times over.
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Craig Jackman
Location: Canada
Posts: 909
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Posted - Thu Apr 24, 2003 1:12 pm
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In a remastered, SACD, superbit mapped, compressed all to hell version as well no doubt.
_________________
Craig Jackman
Production Supervisor
CHEZ/CKBY/CIOX/CJET/CIWW
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada |
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dkris
Posts: 10
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Posted - Thu Apr 24, 2003 1:37 pm
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| Quote: |
| why you don't just get the CD version? |
Hi Ross ... that is a fair question! I am sure that many of us with extensive vinyl collections wrestle with it daily. "Do I dub the vinyl or open up the wallet and purchase the CD?"
For me it comes down to 2 things:
1. Cost. $8 (used) to $18 (new)for the CD. About 30 cents to dub the vinyl. I have hundreds of albums so that becomes a really easy decision. Don't misunderstand: For those albums in my collection that I really love, well, yeah, I have the vinyl and the CD. (My wife doesn't understand the need to own the vinyl AND the CD, but I am sure that I am not the only one in that club.)
2. Sound quality: I am completely blown away by how good the sound is on the CDs that I make from a vinyl source. More than adequate for casual listening (which is about 90% of the time). And CE2K makes the process so easy. I've got it down to where I can do the process in minutes.
Also ... I am concerned about the issue that I am seeing in general. The Billy Joel album is just a specific example of that general problem. I know that I will see it again, with other albums -- its only a matter of when. So I'd like to fix it.
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Graeme
Member
Location: Spain
Posts: 4663
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Posted - Thu Apr 24, 2003 2:50 pm
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| dkris wrote: |
| I've got it down to where I can do the process in minutes. |
BLimey! I wish I could >:K
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AndyH
Posts: 1425
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Posted - Thu Apr 24, 2003 3:56 pm
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Graeme, the first thing you need to do is put an entire roll of duct tape around the perimeter of your TT platter (probably have to move the drive motor back a foot) so you can get the first step up to speed.
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Graeme
Member
Location: Spain
Posts: 4663
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Posted - Thu Apr 24, 2003 4:43 pm
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| AndyH wrote: |
| Graeme, the first thing you need to do is put an entire roll of duct tape around the perimeter of your TT platter (probably have to move the drive motor back a foot) so you can get the first step up to speed. |
LOL - nice idea - but my main TT is a direct drive model, so I'm not sure it would work that well.
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AndyH
Posts: 1425
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Posted - Fri Apr 25, 2003 7:42 am
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Those can be difficult to muck up, especially when they are PLL quartz clock controlled; not quite the options of a stretchy rubber band. And no, you should not feel that courtesy requires another reply to such a lame entry.
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Graeme
Member
Location: Spain
Posts: 4663
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Posted - Fri Apr 25, 2003 10:14 am
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| AndyH wrote: |
| Those can be difficult to muck up, especially when they are PLL quartz clock controlled; not quite the options of a stretchy rubber band. |
Actually, I did mod mine to run at a nominal 78 rpm so, with the speed deviation at max, I suppose it's doing almost 90 rpm - that should save some time with an LP!
| AndyH wrote: |
| And no, you should not feel that courtesy requires another reply to such a lame entry. |
Yeah I know - but I did anyway 
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Record level --- seeing red!
