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drumcat · Location: Vatican City

Seen it? It's long...

MusicConductor · Location: USA

Wow, I'm glad that's there. There's not too much else in CEP that involves so many choices and functions for a single process in a single interface. A lot of people won't be able to use this, but at least there's a walk-through to give everyone an enticement (hopefully not repulsion!)

djwayne · Location: USA

I watched it and it looks simple enough for me. Kind of interesting as that may become the standard mixing format of the future. To use it properly though, I'd have to upgrade my OS to Windows XP, and get a new sound card, (here's where that Revolution 7.1 card from M-Audio may come in handy), if you need to mix to 5.1. You'd also have to have a 5.1 monitor amp, or a three stereo amps, connected to 5 speakers and a sub woofer.
Even thought I'm not setup for 5.1 at this time, the format is already being used in DVD's, movies and games. I read about a Cheiftain's concert that was recorded like this recently, for an upcoming DVD of the concert. They arrainged the mic's to capture not only the band, but the sound at the back of the hall, so when you listen to it on a 5.1 system, you'll have a true surround experience of sitting at the concert.

Now let's say you wanted to make a 5.1 recording, on to a disk, correct me if I'm wrong, but you'd have to record it onto a DVD yes ?? and have a DVD recorder, and a DVD machine to play it back in 5.1, yes ?? and how could you transfer a 5.1 recording across the internet, if you wanted to ?? and how long would it take ?? On the subject of sound cards, could I use a 4 track card in conjuntion with a stereo card I presently have ?? or would I have to upgrade to one card that supports 5.1 ( Six tracks or better) How about if I only wanted 6 tracks going out, two tracks in, would that 7.1 Revolution card do the job ??

Will 5.1 go the way of the 4-channel systems of years ago ??? They were a fad for awhile but eventially died out. I'm thinking the 5.1 systems will be around for awhile, as many people have home theater systems, and with sub-woofers, they sound better than the old 4 channel system....Comments ??

Interesting stuff.

MusicConductor · Location: USA

Whoa, DJ, slow down! Too many questions...

Yes, that Revolution 7.1 is appealing, I must agree. And the Chieftans DVD sound design is standard for the format because it gives you a "you-are-there" effect. Your description sounds like a lot of other surround captures as well, and is a good example for us to follow--depending on what you're recording.

You asked about putting surround on disc. Microsoft has achieved something of a coup with WMA9, because it eliminates the need for a disc -- DVD, CD, LD, or satellite receiver -- to hear 5.1. But if you want to put it on disc, the cheapest way to do it is to buy a DVD player that as a fringe benefit supports BOTH mp3 and wma -- and hope it's WMA9 multichannel-capable. Then burn your WMA9 mix to a CD-ROM. Otherwise, you're into the very nightmares you were envisioning in your question -- DVD-Video or DVD-Audio authoring is very complex and not always "successful" for the amateur, and is a very expensive hobby. The middle ground is to shell out $400 for Minnetonka Audio's SurCode Pro that encodes DTS 5.1 to wave files that can be burned to a CD. Anyone with a digital connection from their CD/DVD player to a DTS-capable receiver/decoder can play these.

As far as using multiple sound cards, the answer is no. You'll have clocking problems unless you can link them together, and the need for multiple drivers eliminates any prospect of CEP's Multichannel Encoder being able to preview through them. The Revolution 7.1 is probably a great option for this, as long as the drivers are multichannel DirectSound compliant. Judging from my scant knowledge of M-Audio's other products, I'd gather that this one would do the job well.

Will this go the way of Quad and Beta VCRs? No, I think 5.1 is here to stay. Once people with good hearing perception hear good 5.1, they don't relish going back to "mere" stereo, as wonderful as it can and should be. Quad failed because three mediocre formats duked it out in a rightfully unconvinced marketplace, and none won because they were either impractical or ineffective. All of today's 5.1 formats are phenomenal by comparison, mainly because they are discrete (unmixed or matrixed) full-range channels with a huge dynamic range. The main concern I have over whether or not 5.1 will succeed is because of the proliferation of $200 receiver/speaker packages that do absolutely nothing for anything played over them, or people having absolutely no clue as to where to place speakers and how to balance them. Yet today most people can easily experience good surround sound somewhere, which does create an enticement to bring it home into the living room! On the other hand, in the 70's discrete surround was only heard in relatively rare 70mm movie screenings--and then the surround channel was usually a mono gimmick, not a means to enfold the listener.

djwayne · Location: USA

Thanks for your input !!

The tutorial really got me thinking about the 5.1 format, and it's a feature that I have available with the CEP 2.1. Sooo now I'm thinking how can I put this to use ?? Do I have to spend thousands or dollars upgrading my amplifiers and monitors ?? Not really.. I've already got a sub woofer, a few extra not pro grade, but good quality speakers, I can scrounge up a couple of stereo amps fairly easily, and the 7.1 revolution card is priced at $100-120, so I could put a 5.1 system together, in a realitive short time, and start mixing to 5.1 for my own pleasure, but to transfer the mix to a disk or across the internet cost effectively, is the next hurdle. I would need to be able to do this, to get the full benefits of the 5.1 mix out of my studio, and into the hands of people who already have a 5.1 system. A $400 software program is out of the question for me though at this time.

Syntrillium M.D. · Location: USA

djwayne · Location: USA

Oh It's cool alright, and I do like having the capability to mix to 5.1, but transferring is still a question. Yes I know you can create the WMA9 file, but how long will it take to transfer or upload at the various bit rate sizes ?? Because your dealing with six tracks vrs. two for a stereo mp3, will it take 3 times longer to transfer ??

Currently there are mp3 hosting sites available, (OMD's-Online Music Distribution) that can handle 128 kbps easily, and for a premium will host 192 kbps files. I haven't heard of an OMD that can host WMA9 files yet. If anyone knows of one please let us know.

Now, next question, are television and radio stations going to be broadcasting in the 5.1 format anytime soon, or are they already doing it ?? In other words, is there a market for the 5.1 format, other than big budget movie productions ??

I'd like to see the 5.1 take off, as it would be a great thing to have live concerts recorded on DVD such as the Cheiftains concert I mentioned earlier. The 5.1 sound experience would definitly be more interesting than a two channel stereo sound. A few years ago, I got a digital delayed amp for my television which produced a right and left, front and rear and center speaker simulated effect, which sounded great with movies. The 5.1 could also sound great.

Yes, the folding down feature is cool, and having the folding up feature would even be better.

hmmmmm.......

Don't mind me I live in a cave.

MusicConductor · Location: USA

No sweat. With a little acoustic treatment, we'll get your cave sounding great in 5.1!

You can specify the bitrate at which your WMA files are encoded, but I do think you're onto something with the idea that more channels will need more bandwidth. Dolby Digital runs around 350-640Kbs and DTS at 768 or 1536Kbs, so to stuff 5.1 channels in a 96Kbs package can't be expected to sound great. And yes, a 256Kbs (for example) WMA file takes more space, taxes the server limits, etc... Time will tell how receptive the web is to this.

You asked if broadcasts are being done in 5.1. The answer is yes, if you have the new Hi Definition equipment, which of course most of us don't and can't. Most hi-def shows aren't 5.1, but some movies and regular shows and events are. This month's Surround Professional magazine has a feature on the 5.1 mix done in February for the Grammy Awards, and has a newsette about HBO's current season of Six Feet Under being aired in 5.1. The other place you can get broadcast 5.1 is on satellite systems (Dish TV, Direct TV) if you get the fancier receiver that handles the Dolby Digital stream on certain premium shows.

Radio? Not yet.

More stuff like the Chieftains? It's all over the place. Our local Tower Records has what appears to be hundreds of 5.1 titles in DTS-CD, DVD-Audio/DVD-Video, and SACD formats. The selection, at long last, finally appears to be generous.

The fact that very few consumer-grade receivers are being made for stereo-only speaks volumes.

djwayne · Location: USA

Yes, I'm having a little bit of luck today with the 5.1 research. I found the Pro Surround website, and read a few articles on it. It seems a lot of people are jumping on the 5.1 bandwagon, making it better than mp3's that are currently being pirated. The 5.1 format would sound better if you have the equipment to use it. Speaking of equipment, I dug up an old Carver Stereo Amp that I had, that wasn't working. I took it apart to find two fuses blown out in it. I replaced the fuses and voila, the amp started working again, so there's my amp for the rear speakers !! and I've got an old Kenwood amp that I found at a thrift store for $15.00, (or my old dj amp, but that's too big at 230 watts per side,)that I can use for center channel and sub-woofer. I've got five sets of speakers I can choose from for rear speakers, a passive sub and a powered sub. I tried downloading the DirectX 9.0 from Microsoft, but the download wouldn't start for some unknown reason. I already have Windows Media Player 9, so all I need at this point is a 6+ channel sound card, a bunch of wire, a few cables and six inputs on the Mackie mixing board. I think I'll hold out for a Revolution 7.1 card, as I have had really good luck with the Audiophile 2496 card, and they should work well together. The midi connections and circuitry on the Audiophile work really well with the Visions program, so I'd keep the 2496 card in the computer, even if I upgraded to a 7.1. The problem of how to get it onto a universally playable cdr or dvd without spending $400 still remains. I could put the 5.1 mix onto a Hi-8 tape with the DA-88 though. hmmmm....

Sooooo overall, it looks like I'm heading in that direction, but it may be awhile, until I can get the card. Maybe next month !!??

MusicConductor · Location: USA

Actually, I may have done you a disservice by suggesting that you buy a DVD player that decodes WMA9. When a DVD player decodes mp3 or stereo WMA, it is easy enough to output the decoded stream to the S/PDIF output of the player. But not so for WMA multichannel, which I'd expect it to simply fold down to stereo. So the only way it would work is if the player had six analog outputs and a full MCE decoder on board, which I'd expect to come at a steeper price if it's even been done at all.

You've hit on one of the drawbacks of Microsoft's invention: you can't translate it easily out of the computer domain. And as far as archiving goes, you can do it to DA-88 and even play back from it, but as we've discussed before, the better longer term archiving, for dependability and bit depth, would be CD-ROM or DVD when used to store uncompressed Wave files.

As far as your hardware goes, you can certainly piece together a system hodgepodge, so long as your levels and frequency responses are matched. That may prove to be easy or quite difficult, and is critical to the success of your system-to-be. (I'm speaking from experience here!)

djwayne · Location: USA

Transferring WMA9 files is certainly going to be time consuming, until faster internet speeds are achieved. Once that happens, I don't see a major problem transferring them, but playing them back, can only be accomplished on a six track system. Even though this is a major hurdle, the record industry will like it because of the anti-piracy issue. They want to make things difficult. Manufactures love selling you new stuff. Sooo expect alot of hype, and high priced DVD's and "Big" sales on 5.1 related stuff. If you can afford it, enjoy !! and if you can't afford it, save your money until you can, cause it's here, and like it or not, I don't think it's going away. It may take awhile before it really catches on due to the current economy. Many people are more concerned with just keeping a roof over their heads than buying a 5.1 sound system, but with the cost of going out, many people will be staying home, and the systems may become the only entertainment they can afford. This is why it's difficult to determine what'll happen with the 5.1 systems.

Like I said the difference between Quadrophonic stuff of the Seventies and 5.1 is the sub-woofer, which does add a lot to the sound, the problem with surround systems is though, you have to be in the right listening spot to enjoy it. I had a quad set up in my van years ago, and it was awful for anyone sitting right next to a speaker, as they could only hear a portion of the music and would miss out on the total effect. A stereo or stereo television though is different, as the two speakers can fill a room with the full sound, and have somewhat of a natural positioning sound, whereas a surround system things come at you from all directions.

Another problem I've read about, is being able to transfer the 5.1 mix to a different studio or speaker set, is that it doesn't transfer well. Similar to the monitoring problems studios have with various monitors, 5.1 systems are all different. A mix may sound good at my place, but at your place the bass may be waay too loud, or the center channel over driving everything, who knows ?? I can assure you I can get my setup to sound good here, but what's that same mix going to sound like, on all the various setups out there ?? I think there may have to be some standards setup that will determine volume levels between channels, for instance, the front right & left be at 100 %, the rear speakers at 80% of that, the center channel 75 % sub at 60 % or whatever, to kind of standardize how a 5.1 recording will sound, from place to place, and from recording to recording.

I have posted an inquiry about OMD's (on MP3.com's forums), that host WMA9's and was told that Microsft hosts them but I haven't gotten any info on that yet. There seems to be very little interest about 5.1 with the musicians there. Most are struggling just to get people to listen to their mp3's. I've yet to hear of any one artist making a living strickly selling downloads of mp3's though, nevermind WMA9's. I'm not saying it can't be done, as some artists could do well selling a WMA9 of a live concert to a select group of die hard fans. But having a 5.1 DVD of a Chieftains concert, would be a special thing to have, for many. This particular concert was the last time the Chieftains played with their harpist Dereck Bell, as he passed away a short while after the recording was made.

So with all this in mind, I'm really glad that Syntrillium has come out with the software that will enable us to work in the 5.1 format, if we choose to do so. I showed the 5.1 mixing page to a friend last night , and he was really impressed that I now have those capabilities on the computer. So now it's up to us to design and build our systems, the best we can. I think it's a step forward. What do you guys think ??????

drumcat · Location: Vatican City

jonrose · Location: USA

Well, drumcat.... you'll certainly get no gripes from me. This is a great addition to a piece of software that was already an incredible value for the price. And I have two 5.1 projects currently in-process.
Smile

Best... -Jon

MusicConductor · Location: USA

I started building (but thankfully didn't finish) my first discrete surround mix in Cool Edit 96 (foolhardy guy that I am). Drumcat, I think you answered your own question: it's a lot of work, expensive to set up well, and may be beyond the survival mode or creative abilities of many people. To a certain extent it is the thing "we have to have" if you listen to the hype; but I just played an orchestra cut for someone today in 5.1 and he said he'd be going home to weep (and also figure out a deal with Santa) wishing he could fork over the bucks to listen that way at home. There's no doubt in my mind as to why a great many new major label projects are being prepared in both stereo and surround versions. As I've said elsewhere, perhaps this will be a "slow burn" that will take time to gain momentum with the public. But as my friend said today, "that's an orchestra."

drumcat · Location: Vatican City

When I meant "a lot of work", I meant it from the software development perspective. But ya, it'll get there. When there aren't anymore 2 speaker stereos sold... we'll see.