Syntrillium Backup Forums :: View topic - Sync problem- CEP as slave to AW4416

jmg · Posted - Tue Mar 18, 2003 12:11 pm

I've been using CEP for about 3 months; before that was getting my feet wet with PC (and loop-) based recording via Acid Pro. I'm admittedly a newbie, although I have done my best to digest all the related threads to my issue before this post.
I'm trying to use my AW4416 as sync (mtc) master to CEP's slave. The AW4416 drives my other midi devices with great consistency (Roland sp808, and Yamaha Motif), But with my (mere 6 or 7-track) CEP session, after about a minute or so, CEP ACTUALLY STARTS TO DRIFT AHEAD (speeds up). Anyone experience anything similar to this, and get it solved?

My details:
PC with Duron 1 gig CPU, 512 mb, windows XP, CEP2. Midi interface is Edirol Um-1. The relative frame rates of master and slave (CEP) are both at 30, Device Settings (Smpte) numbers are: 200, 1000, 8, 1, 200.
Mulititrack: 1,10,2,10,2. Correct for drift/start both UNchecked.

(incidentally, I tried throwing the same waves into an Acid project, just as a test, and everything syncd to the aw4416 mtc with no problem- just checking that the midi interface element was not the culprit.) I appreciate any and all responses. j

VoodooRadio · Location: USA

Sorry, but I don't have a clue... only a suggestion. Try emailing Support on this one. They WILL get it sorted out for you! Wink

jmg · Posted - Wed Mar 19, 2003 12:57 am

Thanks for the reply, voodoo. I'm now waiting to hear back from tech support...j

jmg · Posted - Tue Apr 15, 2003 8:11 pm

I have upgraded to CEP 2.1 and was under the false hope that all my sync woes would be thereby banished. I love CEP to death, but I cannot get over this sync hurdle. My original post above eventually yielded a reply from tech support saying that ...well...they weren't quite sure, and just wait for the upgrade and see if that fixes the problem. So I'm now oficially desperate, folks. Once again, my problem is that I can't get CEP to consistently (slave)sync with the Yamaha AW4416. (Acid on the same computer syncs just fine). CEP never locks tightly, sometimes slightly ahead, sometimes behind, always off. And drifts over time.

I'm a semi-semi-pro home engineer at best, but this is what I've tried : a)changing the smpte start offset times (slave and master), b) adding up to 6 bars of empty space (I started with just 2) at the beginning of the song c)screaming d) making sure other midi'd gear can sync ok e) posting for help on this board.

I have to admit that I'm very unclear on the smpte offset business, but I followed the suggestions from the board anyway. (I understand the concept of needing to chase for a while to get in sync, but don't know why you just can say "mtc slave yes" and be done with it like most of my other gear.)

Anyway if someone out there can tell me the exact settings that work for you for syncing consistently, I will duplicate them. If you tell me the exact soundcard-midi interface-smpte offset values that work for you, all the time, I will go out and buy the same interface and duplicate your settings. I am now oficially that desperate.

Speak to me, direct me like a(n educated) child; I will not be offended. Thanks to all who lend a hand.

p.s. CEP still rocks, as we all know. jmg

Syntrillium M.D. · Location: USA

Hi JMG. Might I ask - do you have any real-time effects on the session in question? If so, you might consider 'locking' the track effects and see if that remedies the problem. Depending on the speed and RAM in your machine, it is possible that with RT effects on multiple tracks you could experience SMPTE drift.

Let us know.

---Syntrillium, M.D.

wink · Posted - Wed Apr 16, 2003 12:32 pm

Hi jmg,

I don't have an answer to your problem, however I've been using CEP with my AW since I got it. My only problem has been flying multiple passes. The tracks NEVER line up on subsequent passes. Either direction, same story. I've been told you need to leave at least 5 seconds of silence at the beginning so the MTC has a chance to lock-up. Hasn't worked for me! I've had no drift problem though, whether it's the 2 mix via SPDIF, or 8 tracks via lightpipe. I just replaced my Y56K with 2 ADAT cards and plan to attack this issue again. The PC has a Frontier Wavecenter PCI card.

Hope you get it resolved!

wink

jmg · Posted - Wed Apr 16, 2003 3:35 pm

Thanks for the helpful hints, MD and Wink. MD-Yes, I am using real time fx, and I will try your suggestion and let you know. Meanwhile, I'm wondering if there is any inherently stable interface setup that will guarantee tight sync all the time. For example, I've read about CEP 2.1's compatibility with the Tascam midi interface (I forgot the model name). Does this mean if I get that interface, I'll no longer have these sync issues? I've lost a lot of work time already and need a surefire solution at this point, even if I have to go out and buy something to fix this. Or is it a matter of a faster cpu being the cure-all?

Also, MD could you tell me your suggested value settings for the device settings page, based on my info? I just want to make sure I'm not overlooking anything.

Finally- Wink, what values, if any, do you have as 'mtc offset'on your AW4416?

Meanwhile, I'll try locking the fx (after I research what that means) Blush

thanks! jmg

Syntrillium M.D. · Location: USA

Hi Jmg. Seeing as you are using real-time effects, I'm going to bet that 'locking' them will (or, theoretically, should) fix the issue.

In the multitrack in the 'track controls' area (this is the area to the left of each track that houses the volume, pan and FX buttons) you'll notice a blue button labeled, LOCK. Clicking on LOCK will pre-render the effects to the track. It's still non-destructive and does not actually 'alter' the original wave, it just essentially creates a temp of the effects applied and frees up CPU, allowing more CPU power to be dedicated to other things, like SMPTE.

As for settings, I use 1,8,2,8,2, though your settings should really be just fine.

Give this a shot and let us know.

---Syntrillium, M.D.

tptman · Posted - Wed Apr 16, 2003 4:54 pm

So, did you upgrade to 2.1? It fixed some issues I was having with sync stability.

wink · Posted - Wed Apr 16, 2003 7:45 pm

Hi jmg,

I don't put any offset in either CEP or on the AW. I did try messing with those when I was trying to make it work, but saw no difference. What I was talking about was 5 or so seconds of digital black at the start of each track. This supposedly works for some devices. It didn't help in my case. Another user tried as well with both CEP and Sound Forge. Same result, so I finally gave up. That was with the Y56K's lightpipe though, and I question the quality of all parts of it. It only works in one direction, and can't even receive wordclock. Different issue but still a questionable design IMO. I've not tried with the MY8-AT cards yet.

BTW, I checked my Multitrack settings as M.D. did and they are 1,10,2,10,2. For all I know they are the defaults. I don't remember changing them anyway.

wink

jmg · Posted - Wed Apr 16, 2003 10:49 pm

Well, guys, I'm back to report. MD, I unlocked the fx (turned out i was only using realtime fx on 1 track, after all), and sadly, the problem persists. I also tested sync on a stripped-down version of the same session (only 3 tracks, no fx). I just listened to the AW's metronome and CEP's metronome together. Rarely, if ever do they sync at all (but the readout at the bottom of CEP reads "synchronized"). When they do, it's only temporary, as CEP has decided to slowly outpace AW's tempo.

The only thing I can ask now, MD, unless new insight is forthcoming, is a detailed template of all the settings I should have on all the relevent pages to expect this problem not to occur. (I used the ones you mentioned above -play/record buffers page, etc-for my most recent trial.) Other than that, I have to re-do this session outside of CEP and be resigned to the inability to sync using CEP. I'm still holding out hope that I've missed something really basic, despite how stupid I'll feel if that's the case.

As mentioned before, I am willing to invest in the right interface or other hardware, if it guarantees I don't have to think about sync problems anymore. 8ball

jmg

Syntrillium M.D. · Location: USA

Hi JMG. Well, having gone back through your posts, it's difficult to say what's causing the problem. From what you've listed, it would appear that your settings are indeed 'in the ballpark'.

At this point, I'd probably recommend emailing support directly, as they'll be able to provide you with some one-on-one assistance.

As an aside, you might try going back to the default SMPTE settings, (under Options>Settings>SMPTE). They are as follows: 200, 1000, 10, .25, 250, Reposition Playback Cursor When Shuttling)

Also, double check your offset times and uncheck SAMPLE ACCURATE SYNC if you have that checked...

When using the offset, let's say your program material (on the Yamaha) begins at 00:10:00:25; you'll want to set CEP's offset to something like 00:09:55:00. This gives you 5 seconds of pre-roll, but that also means that you must begin playback on the Yamaha 5 seconds earlier...I know you're probably aware of that, I just wanted to throw it out there.

You might also want to do a search for 'VS1680', 'VS2480' in the Hardware and Soundcards forum. Like your Yamaha, those are very popular hard-disk systems and I've described (in several threads) how I successfully MTC-synced CEP to both of those machines with flying colors.

---Syntrillium, M.D.

jmg · Posted - Fri Apr 18, 2003 3:29 am

From The Jaws Of Defeat...

Well a hearty thanks to all, and especially to the MD. I now appear to be, at last, in sync. The last suggestion of re-setting the buffer values, combined with the fx locking and unchecking he "correct for drift" button, seems to have done the trick.

I've monitored the respective metronomes of the AW and CEP, and can no longer notice any of the dreaded drift. Now I get the running readout/report of the sync status (i.e. "error: 1.5%, 3.1%, correcting, etc etc) at the bottom of the CEP screen. This is obviously indicating the ongoing status of the battle to stay in sync (I once got the message "synchronization lost" after a minute or so.)

If this (readout indicating errors) is normal, then I guess I've no further questions on this matter. And I thank you again for ushering me in from cliff's edge.

I leave with a shameless plug, (or parting gift, depending on your perspective). To hear something I've done with CEP since getting it this year, go to my recently established artist page on mp3.com. Search (artist name)"the lava project." The song "love and fury" was done entirely on CEP. -before my sync aspirations.

peace. jmg

Syntrillium M.D. · Location: USA