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Brian Burns
Posts: 3
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 Posted - Mon Mar 26, 2001 1:35 pm
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There's a famed Swiss brand of mini-recorder used by radio organizations for high-audio-quality interviews, and by law enforcement agencies for bugs and wires. Can anyone remind me of the brand name or give me evaluations of how satisfactory is is and whether any lower-cost alternatives are satisfactory for field interviews?
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Graeme
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Location: Spain
Posts: 4663
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Posted - Tue Mar 27, 2001 7:39 am
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Nagra perhaps?
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Syntrillium M.D.
Location: USA
Posts: 5124
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Posted - Tue Mar 27, 2001 2:59 pm
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I was thinking Nagra too, Graeme...What about Grundig? They still around?
--Syntrillium Support
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Graeme
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Location: Spain
Posts: 4663
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Posted - Tue Mar 27, 2001 8:17 pm
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| I was thinking Nagra too, Graeme...What about Grundig? They still around? |
Don't think they are still making tape machines - but they're German, as are Uher - who made a range of machines which were used for this purpose.
Another Swiss name to conjure with could be Stellavox - but they don't make tape machines any longer and they were always number two, relative to Nagra.
Edited by - Graeme on 03/27/2001 8:20:45 PM
Edited by - Graeme on 03/27/2001 8:21:13 PM
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Syntrillium M.D.
Location: USA
Posts: 5124
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Posted - Wed Mar 28, 2001 5:14 pm
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Thanks Graeme. I saw a while back one of the old Grundig 1/4 track machines (with the little green "i" logo) on eBay, selling for next to nothing...the guy was practically giving it away and I didn't bid. too bad.
--Syntrillium Support
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Graeme
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Location: Spain
Posts: 4663
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Posted - Thu Mar 29, 2001 6:07 am
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I often see old tape machines around for next to nothing - even over here, they keep popping out of the woodwork. I bought a Technics 1506, in a really out of the way village, for the equivalent of around $80 a couple of months ago - a very nice machine and in perfect working condition.
Grundigs are (relatively) common - they were a very popular domestic choice.
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York Audio
Posts: 80
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Posted - Fri Mar 30, 2001 6:12 am
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The mini Nagra E is the machine you are thinking of.
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Douglas Tourtelot
Posts: 11
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Posted - Sat Apr 28, 2001 9:52 am
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The Nagra SN is the really little Nagra; uses 1/8" tape (width of cassette tape) on little open reals. Not made anymore, but a very interesting, if a bit impractical, tape recorder. You can find them around occasionally, but they are sold as collector's items and quite expensive. Tape is still available but very pricey. Look on ebay. Also, they probably don't do anything better than a Sony pro-walkman and a cassette and they are much more tweeky. So if you are looking for an expensive conversation piece, you couldn'd do better than a Nagra SN, but if you want good sound in a small package, I'd opt for a D8 DAT walkman.
Regards,
D.
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Douglas Tourtelot
Posts: 11
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Posted - Mon Apr 30, 2001 6:52 pm
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I found myself on the Nagra website yesterday and, I'll be damned, they still make, or at least offer as a product, the Nagra SN. That would mean tape for it is probably available as well.
D.
The Nagra SN is the really little Nagra; uses 1/8" tape (width of cassette tape) on little open reals. Not made anymore, but a very interesting, if a bit impractical, tape recorder. You can find them around occasionally, but they are sold as collector's items and quite expensive. Tape is still available but very pricey. Look on ebay. Also, they probably don't do anything better than a Sony pro-walkman and a cassette and they are much more tweeky. So if you are looking for an expensive conversation piece, you couldn'd do better than a Nagra SN, but if you want good sound in a small package, I'd opt for a D8 DAT walkman.
Regards,
D.[/quote]
Edited by - Douglas Tourtelot on 04/30/2001 6:53:47 PM
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Graeme
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Location: Spain
Posts: 4663
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Posted - Tue May 01, 2001 8:48 pm
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| I found myself on the Nagra website yesterday and, I'll be damned, they still make, or at least offer as a product, the Nagra SN. |
I wonder where the market for this machine is these days?
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SteveG
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 6695
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Posted - Wed May 16, 2001 12:23 pm
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They are probably selling them to film props departments. Come to think of it, they're probably still selling them to law enforcement agencies - it takes them ages to update their buying procedures.
I've got a D7 DAT recorder, and it's great for high quality field recordings. Portable DAT recorders aren't that cheap though. I also get very acceptable results from a Sharp (NOT Sony!) MiniDisc recorder with an external mic preamp. All portable MD recorders have similar built-in mic stages which are severely compromised by having a relatively poor noise performance, no headroom and a completely ridiculous polarising voltage on the mic socket. Line and optical inputs are fine, though.
And Minidiscs are much cheaper in cost per hour terms than DAT tapes.
Steve G.
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Graeme
Member
Location: Spain
Posts: 4663
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Posted - Thu May 17, 2001 3:50 pm
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| They are probably selling them to film props departments. |
LOL - how very likely.
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| I've got a D7 DAT recorder, and it's great for high quality field recordings. Portable DAT recorders aren't that cheap though. |
I have a Sony TC8 - like yours it is really good for field work. Not particularly cheap, but not that much more than a rack mount machine here (Spain).
MD - I prefer not to think about them. My past experience with MD was not impressive and I'm holding off buying one until the day someone actually gives me a job which needs one.
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SteveG
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 6695
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Posted - Fri May 18, 2001 3:17 am
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| My past experience with MD was not impressive... Graeme |
Graeme, if your experience was with an early ATRAC MD, I'd agree with you entirely. But the coding process has moved forward to the point where artefacts are at a level that is insignificant for interviews. It's about twice as good as 128k MP3. Brian did say that he wanted a low-cost field interview alternative, and broadcasters the world over are using them for this purpose.
I did say not a Sony. Sony portables have the dreaded 'End Search' button which, when you reinsert a prerecorded disk and forget to push it, means that when you start recording, it will be from the beginning of the disk. So you will wipe out your previous recordings. Also, in manual record, you can only adjust the record level by going into pause(!).
Sharp MD recorders, on the other hand, are not blessed with Sony's design sense and as a result are far more user-friendly. The attempted suicide rate amongst Sharp-using journalists is probably much lower.
Sony desktop MD's are excellent, though. I have an MDS-JE640 connected optically to a Soundblaster Live DriveII panel, which cuts out a D/A/D, and has the added benefit of improving the SBLive sound when you replay via the MD's rather better D/A converter. Yes, I know it's still 16bit and converted to 48Kbs, but the converters seem to have a significantly greater impact on the perceived sound quality than the number of bits or the bitrate. The BBC have been quite happy with the results from this setup...
Portable MDs are a good, cheap solution for field interviews, but you will still need a decent mic and preamp.
Steve G
Edited by - SteveG on 05/18/2001 03:19:43 AM
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Graeme
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Location: Spain
Posts: 4663
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Posted - Fri May 18, 2001 11:49 am
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| My past experience with MD was not impressive... Graeme |
Graeme, if your experience was with an early ATRAC MD, I'd agree with you entirely. But the coding process has moved forward to the point where artefacts are at a level that is insignificant for interviews. It's about twice as good as 128k MP3. Brian did say that he wanted a low-cost field interview alternative, and broadcasters the world over are using them for this purpose.
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My only experience with MD was around 1994/5. It was suggested that it was used as the source for a particular project. However, compared against CD, it really was non-starter. This conclusion was reached after the audio had been pushed through an IR transmitter - which was hardly doing the audio any favours to start with :-)
However, I take the point that, for the purpose requested, this may well be a good solution.
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| I did say not a Sony. Sony portables have the dreaded 'End Search' button which, when you reinsert a prerecorded disk.... |
The TC8 is a DAT machine, not MD.
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SteveG
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 6695
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Posted - Fri May 18, 2001 11:55 am
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Sorry Graeme, I should have said Sony MD portables. Doesn't apply at all to DAT, obviously.
In 1994/5, MD sounded like you'd always put the mic next to a bowl of freshly poured and milked rice crispies...
Steve
Edited by - SteveG on 05/18/2001 11:57:14 AM
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nicholas P
Posts: 6
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Posted - Tue Jun 12, 2001 1:33 am
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Brian, what is the exact purpose of your question ?
Are you searching for a portable tape recorder ? for special use ?
Nagra IV (mono), IVS (stereo), E (low-cost), SN (pocket), Stellavox, Uher (1200,4000,4200,4400) have been built for outdoor recordings. Each one has been manufactured to be highly shock-proof, heat resistant and can be repaired even in the "jungle" (if you are electronic engineer or technician). I have the Uher 4200 and I have no problem to repair it. Common components...I have just a set of new belts in a bag located inside....
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SteveG
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 6695
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Posted - Tue Jun 12, 2001 1:37 pm
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Brian, what is the exact purpose of your question ?
Are you searching for a portable tape recorder ? for special use ?
-nicholas P |
I thought that Brian's request for information was pretty clear! Field interviews = portable, unless you are a glutton for punishment. Special use = field interviews. I generally take 'field interview' to mean that we are going to record an interview with somebody away from our base of operations. I believe that this is generally accepted terminology.
Brian had also hinted that he's interested in a lower-cost alternative. Even the Uhers, probably the lowest-cost machines in your list don't qualify as cheap. Not even fairly cheap. In fact, I'd go as far as to say damned expensive!
I'm not saying that Nagras, Stellavoxes and even Uhers (with which I've had some motor trouble) aren't good machines, but they are not considered to be even vaguely cost-effective these days. Also, the cost of 1/4" tape has increased steadily over the years as sales have fallen.
So nobody in all honesty could possibly recommend purchasing one of these machines for interviews. If you really want high quality, a portable DAT machine will at least equal the performance of a well-maintained Nagra, and significantly out-perform any Uher. Stellavox aren't making tape machines any more, as far as I can find out, so they're not a consideration anyway. And even a relatively expensive Sony D8 is much, much cheaper than a Nagra, easier to carry around, less fiddly to use... need I continue?
The main use for Nagras and Stellavoxes for a long time was with film crews, who used them because they could have a pilot tone mod fitted which enabled easy audio synch. recording with 16 or 35mm film. So I was only half-joking when I mentioned film previously.
So Nicholas, what are you recording that would make you seriously consider buying a new Uher?
Steve
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Graeme
Member
Location: Spain
Posts: 4663
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Posted - Tue Jun 12, 2001 4:32 pm
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I agree with SteveG - a portable DAT machine would be a much better prospect than any Nagra, or similar, machine. Not to mention cheaper and easier to find tapes for.
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nicholas P
Posts: 6
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Posted - Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:01 am
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I agree with you, SteveG. I have made many recordings with Uher, Revox...20 years ago.
Stellavox, Uher, Grundig don't manufacture analog tape recorders any more.
DAT and recent MD recorders will significantly more adapted for various field recording with the exception to specific climatic environments and countries: If you have to ethnologically study a tribe in Central Africa, DAT or MD are not recommended... Nagra and even Uher are more reliable.
NB: Concerning your Uher motor trouble, it was a known problem: Uher service department (here, in France) has explained me that a change of a transitor on the motor controlled board fixes the problem. I have made this 1$ change, and the motor starts as a new one.
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SteveG
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 6695
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Posted - Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:22 am
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If I was doing an ethnographic study in Africa, I'd seriously consider a solid-state recorder with flashcards, I still wouldn't take a Nagra, thanks!
Yes, I found out ages ago about the Uher motor fix. It made quite a difference!
Steve
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Famous hi-end Swiss mini-recorder for interviews