Clipping Question

Is it possible to have audible clipping on a wave that is metering fairly low and doesn't appear to be even close to the top?

It only happens in a couple of spots in a harmonica track. Can other things cause clipping besides signal levels?

[TROGDOR!!!]

Well, let me ask you a question:  Are you recording your harmonica acoustically or through an amp?  I've done a ton of harmonica recording in the last year, and I know it can be a buggar.

To answer your question: No, but the signal level could be somewhere you aren't expecting.  You could even be clipping a mic by overloading it.  Tell us more about your setup and I'm sure someone will have an idea.

Josh

the track was being played through his harmonica mic (unknown brand) and run into a fender guitar amp for monitoring and out through a Behringer direct box with padding.

It sounds like it could be a mic overload thing simply because it only happens slightly in 2 places.
thanx for bringing that up

I think Josh is about right - you might have picked up some distortion earlier in the chain.

There is one possibility though which can introduce digital clipping even when it's not apparent. If you input a mono signal on one channel only and record a mono file you'll find clipping starting at -6dB rather than 0dB in CEP. If you pan a mono signal to the centre - i.e. equal levels to both channels, then you can go up to 0dB on the meters. If you record on one channel only into a stereo file you can go up to 0dB...

I could probably work out why, but I'm sure someone like SteveG will explain it better and quicker! Just being aware of the problem is enough for me...

[TROGDOR!!!]

the track was being played through his harmonica mic (unknown brand) and run into a fender guitar amp for monitoring and out through a Behringer direct box with padding.

It sounds like it could be a mic overload thing simply because it only happens slightly in 2 places.
thanx for bringing that up

Have you tried mic'ing the amp and using a bit of distortion intentionally?  It may not fit your specific song, but it can sound pretty nice (especially with the right amp).  Out of curiosity, what model of amplifier is it?

Josh

it's a twin. I recorded it dry. What kind of verbs do you like?

[TROGDOR!!!]

I don't usually use much amp-verb on harmonica tracks.  However, that classic Fender spring 'verb that you get from a twin could be quite nice depending on your track.  Generally though, I see that sort of reverb as more of an effect.  It sounds great on electric guitars, but with other instruments I find that it usually just makes it sound fake.  I would play with CE's built in 'verbs.

As far as harmonica amps go, in my experience one speaker is enough.  more than that can muddy the sound.  However, that doesn't have to be the case.  You just have to play with the EQ and gain to get the sound you want.  If you can get your hands on one, the best sounding harmonica amp I've ever heard was an old tube-driven Alamo.  I'll have to check the model on it later, but oh man did it sound sweet!  The Danelectro Honeytone amps are also quite nice, but you have to compensate a bit for the lack of tube warmth and bottom end.  They will cut through a muddy mix, though!  I've heard that the Fender Blues Jr. is also a top choice among blues harmonical players, but I've never heard it myself.

I'd love to hear what you come up with when you're done if that's possible.  I'm always up for comparing notes!

Josh

I was actually refering to the built in reverbs in cep do you have any tips for "wetting" up the track w/o losing clarity?

I would love to share results---

How would I do that?

[TROGDOR!!!]

Ooops, sorry about that.  I don't have any specific verb that I go to...  Actually, I usually use just a tiny bit of verb for presence, and then add mild echo for depth in the stuff I'm doing.  However, it's all about how the harp fits in to the song.

Hold on a couple of days. I'm hoping to have some webspace set aside for stuff like this.  We could upload files for comparison, criticism, etc.

Josh

awesome!

Thanx Josh

[TROGDOR!!!]

not a problem!

The best harmonic tracks I've done were using an old (circa late 50's) National amp (tube-type with a single 8" speaker) and a Kendrick "spring" reverb head.  The Kendrick is made here in Texas (they're actually an amp manufacturer) and they have a real similiar sound to the "Accutronics" spring reverbs found in most Fenders.  I mic'd with with a 57 and stacked tracks.

FWIW, John Popper (harmonic extraordinaire with Blues Traveler) averages 9 tracks per song in the studio.  Everything from distortion harp, clean harp, Leslie harp, effect harp and phase harp.  He also uses the majority of his "monster" live rig.

Which consist of;   He splits the signal to 5 different places.  He plays into a modified SM58 and the mic goes into a Behringer stereo mic preamp, (just to split the signal and change the level from mic to line).  One side of the Behringer goes direct to FOH (Bo Mahoney running a Midas XL4 console with 56 total inputs, 40 mono and 8 stereo) via an XLR.  The 1/4" output of that side of the pre goes into a Mesa Boogie amp switcher.  From there, one input goes to two Mesa Boogie Heartbreaker 100-watt heads, the other input goes to the effects pedals Heartbreaker head and a 3rd send goes a small amp onstage that Popper uses for feedback effects.  The first main head gets slaved and feeds a Leslie roto-cabinet offstage that is mic'd with a SM57.  He also gets that signal (the leslie) brought back into his monitors.  He has a volume knob on his mic so he can turn the send to the Leslie up or down, and he also can control the speed of the Leslie from the mic.  The other side of the Behringer goes into a rack of effects that are run offstage.  He does control his effects patches with a MIDI pedal with the "wet" send also going back to an onstage monitor.  The units he uses offstage are Mesa Boogie Tri/Axis models, which are MIDI-programmable preamps.  They're used to contol levels of each of his effect's sounds.  He uses an Alesis Quadraverb, a DigiTech IP33 Harmonizer and an Eventide H3000 harmonizer.  

Now, that just goes to show that you can make things as complicated/uncomplicated as you desire.  There ain't no denying that boys talent!!!  

That's what you can do if you don't have to spend any money for sticks and strings  

 He splits the signal to 5 different places.  He plays into a modified SM58 and the mic goes into a Behringer stereo mic preamp, (just to split the signal and change the level from mic to line).  One side of the Behringer goes direct to FOH (Bo Mahoney running a Midas XL4 console with 56 total inputs, 40 mono and 8 stereo) via an XLR.  The 1/4" output of that side of the pre goes into a Mesa Boogie amp switcher.  From there, one input goes to two Mesa Boogie Heartbreaker 100-watt heads, the other input goes to the effects pedals Heartbreaker head and a 3rd send goes a small amp onstage that Popper uses for feedback effects.  The first main head gets slaved and feeds a Leslie roto-cabinet offstage that is mic'd with a SM57.  He also gets that signal (the leslie) brought back into his monitors.  He has a volume knob on his mic so he can turn the send to the Leslie up or down, and he also can control the speed of the Leslie from the mic.  The other side of the Behringer goes into a rack of effects that are run offstage.  He does control his effects patches with a MIDI pedal with the "wet" send also going back to an onstage monitor.  The units he uses offstage are Mesa Boogie Tri/Axis models, which are MIDI-programmable preamps.  They're used to contol levels of each of his effect's sounds.  He uses an Alesis Quadraverb, a DigiTech IP33 Harmonizer and an Eventide H3000 harmonizer.  

So much for sticking in your pocket at the end of the gig and going home  

And to think... I was impressed with the results I got out of the old National!