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December 16, 2007, 09:07:39 AM
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Topic: Good news on the vinyl to CD front!  (Read 4173 times)
Reply #15
« on: August 02, 2003, 05:03:30 PM »
SteveG Offline
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Quote from: Andrew Rose


The more I dig around and find out the more I get really pissed off with the way I was treated... evil

The more I hear about it, the more I think that they shouldn't be allowed to get away with it, either. I'm beginning to think that they might need a very public hoisting...
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Reply #16
« on: August 02, 2003, 06:21:02 PM »
bonnder Offline
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Didn't somebody sort of address this issue before?

Oh yeah - here it is:  http://audiomastersforum.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=36&start=25

Quote from: bonnder
Andrew, I'm not so certain you would have lost your case had you gone to court. The recording industry is trying to get its way through intimidation specifically because the courts are not automatically taking its side. The AudioMasters forum could perhaps become a clearinghouse for up-to-the minute happenings around the world in the arena of audio restoration. Educating people about where they can stand firmly will help to neutralize intimidation as a weapon. We could maybe become a leader in this education process.


This thread seems like a good first step in the education process for others who wish to follow in Andrew's audio restoration footsteps.  As for public hoisting, newspapers are always hungry for a good story.
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Reply #17
« on: August 02, 2003, 07:07:57 PM »
VoodooRadio Offline
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Yes, I posted the link to the Library of Congress in that thread.  For those not in "the know" about such practices... it's good stuff to know!   wink
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Good Luck!

VooDoo
Reply #18
« on: August 03, 2003, 12:21:43 AM »
ozpeter Offline
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The trouble is that Andrew now knows how to proceed - getting permission as required etc - but at the time of the 'bust' he hadn't done that, or of course even known that such a procedure was either necessary or possible.  It could of course be argued that the 'gentlemen' who leaned on him were less than helpful in not pointing out how it's possible to proceed legally, but that makes less of a good news story.

I think Andrew's revenge should come through promulgating the way to frustrate the Trading Standards people (as he has done here), which in essence means pointing out to others how they can stay on the right side of the law which is an activity which they can hardly feel upset about, rather than getting frontally up their noses with complaints about their visit, which is likely to result in even closer scruitiny of everything that he even thinks of doing, and ending up with even more hassles.  These people have some remarkably wide powers and widespread contacts!
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Reply #19
« on: August 03, 2003, 02:09:38 AM »
Pavell
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Laws can be very complex and don't follow always the common sense.
Andrew should focus more on the local laws regarding to the copyright
on music instead of what the labels might say.

if it was up to them then we all would have to buy a black box that plays
music on demand.  Pay for each track, no matter if the box plays the same track 5 times a day.
No matter what they try, a week later someone has cracked any sort of copy protection.

Something about tghe lack of security. The xbox

Mircosoft was also not very happy when they installed Linux on their
game console XboX. Spended even more dollars to improve the
security of the box but also those where cracked and the Tuxbox is still
running. Could Microsoft sue them for cracking the xbox? No, they couldn't. Even worse, some lab guys used a high speed backbone
and connected 52 of these tuxboxes together to end up with a... super cheap supercomputer.


Microsoft sells these boxes under their price and hopes to get the loss back by selling the games, so they didn't like the whole Tuxbox story
at all.
___________________________________________________________
I'm against any form of illegal data transfer.
Any post that goes in that direction will meet the bad word list.
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Reply #20
« on: August 03, 2003, 02:27:38 AM »
SteveG Offline
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Okay, this is a little bit of a rant... (not at Peter, really!)

Quote from: ozpeter
The trouble is that Andrew now knows how to proceed - getting permission as required etc - but at the time of the 'bust' he hadn't done that, or of course even known that such a procedure was either necessary or possible.  It could of course be argued that the 'gentlemen' who leaned on him were less than helpful in not pointing out how it's possible to proceed legally, but that makes less of a good news story.

Unfortunately, ignorance is not a privilege in English law...  but I got the impression that this bust was made precisely because the BPI presumed (without checking themselves) that he wouldn't get permission if he asked - which is clearly not the case. Okay, neither party was absolutely in the right, but I still think that Andrew has the moral high ground here.

Quote from: ozpeter also
I think Andrew's revenge should come through promulgating the way to frustrate the Trading Standards people (as he has done here), which in essence means pointing out to others how they can stay on the right side of the law which is an activity which they can hardly feel upset about, rather than getting frontally up their noses with complaints about their visit, which is likely to result in even closer scruitiny of everything that he even thinks of doing, and ending up with even more hassles.  These people have some remarkably wide powers and widespread contacts!

I will respectfully have to disagree with this. You don't take it lying down at all - that's precisely what they want you to do. The BPI don't have any powers to speak of - they need warrants, just like anybody else, and if they have acted in a high-handed manner without checking all of the facts properly, then they should be publically held to account for it. If they had obtained a warrant under these circumstances, when the likelihood was that the record company wouldn't have prosecuted anyway, then the issuing magistrate would certainly have had a few things to say about it!

The Trading Standards officers are public servants, and we have a right to expect them to act impartially when they are called in. It's quite clear that they believed exactly what the BPI told them, without any sort of checking at all. I can't see any reason at all for them not being taken publically to task. If anything, it's more likely to keep them on their toes. Without exception they are overworked - there's no way they were volunteering for this job, and they won't want to go back, especially if they think it's likely to blow up in their faces. No, you warn them off.

But in fairness, it's really the BPI who should be hoisted. Their whole system is slewed heavily in favour of their larger members, and every action they take of this nature is petty. It's quite clear that they regarded Andrew as a soft target that they could frighten, and absolutely the last thing you want to do in this situation is roll over and die. Andrew did what they said, and found out that they were talking absolute rubbish. Why shouldn't he take a crack at them?

You don't get cross - you get even. How did it go in Crocodile Dundee? "Christ, that kangaroo's got a gun!" (best line in the film IMHO!)

I think that it may well be worth getting this particular flame to breathe  the oxygen of publicity. It is unfortunately the case that if you want any media attention for something like this, it has to be sensational - and it only takes one big breaking story for it to get lost without trace. So you need a campaign - you don't put all your eggs in one basket, but even that's fraught with difficulty. Certainly you wise people up to the situation - but this will hack the record companies off a treat, because of all the requests they will get, and they will start thinking about the BPI...

The only good news is that at this point, the BPI will be forced to use a scheme like the ARIA one that WT mentioned, which is there to do precisely what Andrew wants. But for the backward-looking BPI to do something like this, the impetus would have to come from their members. And the BPI won't like it, because they won't be making any money from it. They are not there to look after the needs of Andrew, after all - they've made it quite clear that their attitude is that they're out to frustrate him.

So I could see this getting a little messy...
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Reply #21
« on: August 03, 2003, 05:38:39 AM »
bonnder Offline
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Not to distract attention from SteveG's very valid points, but I want to stay on Pavell's good side.

Quote from: Pavell
I'm against any form of illegal data transfer.
Any post that goes in that direction will meet the bad word list.


Pavell, is there anything in this thread that is getting close to going in the direction of "illegal data transfer"?
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Reply #22
« on: August 03, 2003, 09:15:36 PM »
Andrew Rose Offline
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As far as 'illegal data transfer' is concerned - it's only illegal if it's done without the permission of the copyright holder. In this case it's the record company who have the full legal right to grant or deny permission to any individual or company to make copies of their material, for free or for a fee, as they see fit. If BMG or Universal tell me I can copy their material then there's not a court in the land which is entitled to prosecute me for doing so, precisely because I have the permission of the copyright holder.

I sent a long and (very) carefully worded e-mail to my tormentor at the BPI this morning, the reply to which I will of course report here. I pointed out that the record companies were happy to grant permissions for this kind of copying, and that their representatives were amazed that the BPI had pursued such a case.

I also asked who'd tipped them off (I guess I won't get a reply to that one!), as I find it hard to believe that there's anyone out there wishing to make this sort of formal complaint. And I want to know how they file the £50 cash that their 'undercover investigator' spent trying to entice me into breaking the law, when the complete their accounts.

During all of this I've had the pleasure of doing business with a guy called Ken Howard - one half of a prolific 60's songwriting duo with many multi-million sellers under his belt (and the first Brits to write for Elvis...), and now director of a major arts TV and film company - he's a man with far more experience than me in these matters. At the beginning of this little saga he expressed the same degree surprise as everyone else at the BPI's actions. When I spoke to him again last Friday he related to me the way things work in the film and tv industry, with the frighteningly complicated negotiations required there to gain permission to use clips from other filmed material.

The companies which carry out film copying basically do this with without any prior copyright checks, and send the material out with a disclaimer which puts the onus on the client to ensure the material is not used without full proper agreements in place. Again this was not an option offered to me!

My current feeling is that wherever possible I'll jump through the hoops to achieve an agreement, but that where small companies are long gone I'll probably compose some sort of statement which passes responsibility for this on to the client. In most of the latter cases we're talking about stuff that was released prior to the blanket contract changes Universal talked about around 1984, so it's not really likely to be a big problem anyway.

The only other thing I'll remember is not to take any work on from someone who neglects to supply a home address and offers cash...  embarassed
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Reply #23
« on: August 03, 2003, 10:46:51 PM »
SteveG Offline
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Quote from: bonnder
Not to distract attention from SteveG's very valid points, but I want to stay on Pavell's good side.

Quote from: Pavell
I'm against any form of illegal data transfer.
Any post that goes in that direction will meet the bad word list.


Pavell, is there anything in this thread that is getting close to going in the direction of "illegal data transfer"?

Don't worry - if we'd strayed that far, I would have censored the posts!
Quote from: Andrew Rose

The only other thing I'll remember is not to take any work on from someone who neglects to supply a home address and offers cash...  

Now that is a good thing to remember. It does beg a few questions, but in view of what I wrote just above, I will not persue them! I will say this, though: I suspect that the real reason you got stung was because you are honest. A dishonest person could have avoided any problems with this whole situation at all by taking some fairly basic steps... and if it had subsequently gone to court, made the agents provacateurs look like a bunch of right shady characters!
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Reply #24
« on: August 03, 2003, 11:04:42 PM »
Andrew Rose Offline
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Quote from: SteveG
Quote from: Andrew Rose

The only other thing I'll remember is not to take any work on from someone who neglects to supply a home address and offers cash...  

Now that is a good thing to remember. It does beg a few questions, but in view of what I wrote just above, I will not persue them! I will say this, though: I suspect that the real reason you got stung was because you are honest. A dishonest person could have avoided any problems with this whole situation at all by taking some fairly basic steps... and if it had subsequently gone to court, made the agents provacateurs look like a bunch of right shady characters!


And of course the only client who ever acted like that - which I thought a little strange at the time, though his cover story (didn't want the wife to find out about her birthday present) seemed vaguely plausible. I'm just not the kind of dishonest villain who'd even suspect anything might be amiss or be looking out for it...
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Reply #25
« on: August 04, 2003, 01:03:27 AM »
ozpeter Offline
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All good points, Steve - esp "Don't get mad, get even" - make no mistake, I very much hope that through whatever method Andrew feels best, he gets very, very even.
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Reply #26
« on: August 04, 2003, 01:56:20 AM »
django Offline
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Quote from: ozpeter
These people have some remarkably wide powers and widespread contacts!


I've just remembered that one of my pals wife's ( Um I mean the wife of one of my pals)  Is in trading standards  I'll gave a chat about the intricacies of next tiome I see her (not likely to be soon.)
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Reply #27
« on: August 04, 2003, 02:38:08 PM »
ozpeter Offline
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And here is a news story that puts the matter into perspective, size-wise.
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Reply #28
« on: August 05, 2003, 07:21:42 AM »
Andrew Rose Offline
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Quote from: ozpeter
And here is a news story that puts the matter into perspective, size-wise.


It's not too difficult to draw the conclusion that it's far easier to chalk up a 'success' in combatting 'piracy' and achieve numeric targets by pursuing me than by going after organised crime...
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Reply #29
« on: September 13, 2003, 07:36:01 AM »
Andrew Rose Offline
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Well now that we're all back I guess it's time to update you all on the latest installment in this increasingly laughable story. I didn't think it worth starting all over again on the Adobe forums, where the appearance or not of my posts seems pretty random (I did contribute some nice long posts which simply never appeared...)

Anyway, since the forum disappeared I've chalked up agreements with both EMI and Sony/CBS. The guy at EMI had the best idea, so much so that Sony adopted it when I told them and tried to make it sound as if it was their policy as well!  cheesy

The simple solution from EMI? On the label of the CD put a copyright notice identical to that on the original LP label - eg.  "©1967 Parlophone". (That's the mono release, of course, Beetle! Cool )

The EMI guy (BTW they are the most impenetrable company!!!) said basically people ought really to come to them and get Abbey Road to make copies from the original masters but frankly he couldn't see anyone doing that so it was OK as long as I didn't keep any audio 'on a PC' once the copy had been made.

And the best bit of all? I have it all in writing - an e-mail reply to one I sent EMI outlining the conversation and confirming all the details and agreement. After that and the experience of the others I decided I really couldn't be bothered to get written confirmation from the Sony lawyer - I'd spoken to enough people there for them to know and be able to corroborate my request, and I know for a fact that it also exists on internal Sony e-mails.

So a happy story to come back to! Welcome home, everyone...
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