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897 The MONSTA · Posted - Sat Dec 22, 2001 11:05 am

Is there another program or something that can cut vocals cuz I want to make a few instrumentals for my cd. Please respond ASAP. thanx a lot.

Bruce Bartlett · Location: Canada

sk · Location: USA

Graeme · Member Location: Spain

Jim Smitherman · Posted - Sat Dec 22, 2001 12:32 pm

This is an older question than you might imagine, too. I was in a band in 1977 that was hired to do a cover of the instrumentals to a couple of 'saturday night fever' (thank god for the death of disco) tunes, that a Miss Louisiana contestant wanted to use, as backing for her singing, as her 'talent.' Her first question when she called us though, was 'can you take the vocals out of a recording for me to sing to?" Well, no, not unless you have access to the original session takes (this was lost on her) but we can play the music and make a recording you CAN sing to, though. So, we went into the studio with her.

I think it's easy to forget how completely naive the general public is regarding even the basics of what stereo is (even though it was introduced, what, about '57?), much less the more esoteric matters, such as frequencies and amplitudes. They hear karaoke, they've maybe heard of the music minus one sort of thing, and they just figure it's a commonplace thing to do. Have pity on them, they know not what they ask. Digital signal processing is pretty much a sufficiently advanced technology that it appears as magic to the masses. I understand the frustration of the frequency of the question, so I suggest someone keep a boilerplate text file ready to paste in as reply. "no" is pretty much accurate, but the question really is asked in honesty, if naivete and sometimes, laziness (learn to play the music yourself, and make a midi file of it, then sing).

Oh yeah, she did use our stuff on the show, but lost the contest. But, the question itself is . . stayin' alive . . .

Jim

Edited by - Jim Smitherman on 12/22/2001 12:46:51 PM

Heavens to Betsy · Location: USA

Jim Smitherman · Posted - Sat Dec 22, 2001 1:18 pm

I hear you, I really do. There are degrees of insult though. I've seen people drop into database programming ng's and ask things like 'somebody explain what a one to many relation is, and why it's important. Email me, since I don't check this group that often' . .

You can imagine the sort of response that gets, if it gets any. The more polite ones suggest that the person do his hor her own homework for database programming 101.

The vocal removal thing is less cut and dried as far as the laziness factor . . but, as I said the question is not going to go away. God knows why it's so attractive, but karaoke seems here to stay. I suppose that's the origin of a lot of this stuff, the wannabe factor. It's hard to assess how hard someone wants to be, though. I did feel a bit sorry for the young lady that posted the other day. I fear the forum lost a possible member there.

Jim

sk · Location: USA

My question at this point is not even so much 'why', but 'how', a company like Analog X, that makes otherwise highly functional, helpful utilities like Cookie Wall and DX Man can put out a product that pretends to do something it obviously cannot. I've been using Analog X products for a long time and their products are usually highly regarded and reviewed. It makes me wonder not only how they can put out Vocal Remover in the first place, but also how that product has been able to avoid the type of public criticism that usually causes people to stop asking these types of questions.

And as far as the 'laziness' factor goes, I tend to agree with Jim on that one.

sk

Edited by - sk on 12/22/2001 3:13:42 PM

Edited by - sk on 12/22/2001 8:28:30 PM

beetle · Location: USA

I agree, SK. Analog X should know better, especially since the software is usually freeware!

And, Jim's asessment of the sad situation is very true, the public is very ignorant of what digital can do. The half-brained suggestions they get from their friends doesn't help.

I once asked an older woman, a vocalist who dabbles in her own home recording why she thought that seperating music from vocals was possible. She told me that some hip-hopper who makes his own CDs told her it was possible, so she believed that it could be done to the point of questioning my knowledge of such matters.

Explaining to a novice that certain parameters must be right for it to work at all falls on deaf ears because of the lack of understanding they have of the recording process. The hype of how wonderful digital is over the last 20 years doesn't help matters.

So, with all of this, what can we all do to correct this in our own little corner of the world?

Well, I will direct them all to this thread because this is one of the best ones we have done on this issue so far.

I like that "Tha Monsta" followed the issue and asked the question the way he did. he didn't just assume it could be done, he asked first. I hope he is still reading this so far.

I do not feel bad for Kristen because of the way she reacted to the answers she didn't like. It rewally is her loss that she didn't have the guts to stick around or check out the search engine. I also personally think she had issues with men. Recall her comments about "our little 'boy's' world"?

Guitar Ed · Posted - Sat Dec 22, 2001 5:46 pm

I tried the Vocal Remover thing one time, and that was enough for me. As mentioned earlier in the thread, you end up removing everything that happens to be placed in the center of the spectrum, and, more often than not, the result is unusable. If I really want to use a song badly enough, I just learn all the parts, then use my favorite multitrack program (CEP), and play and record all the stuff. So far, it works great !!!!!!! In my opinion, I would forget about removing the vocals until the technology arrives to do it properly, and I don't see that happening just because of the nature of recording in general. You'd almost have to be able to remove all the center-recorded info, then have the ability to replace the bits you want to leave in there. Ain't happenin! Depending on the music you want to use, there are some decent MIDI versions of thousands of songs out there that you can edit and tweak to your heart's desire, then record them into CEP. Just a thought.
Ed

beetle · Location: USA

Most people who want to remove vocals or music are not musicians and have no interest in creating original music.

sk · Location: USA

resistor man · Posted - Sat Dec 22, 2001 8:48 pm

I was drafted into running a high school production and a group of girls brought in a CD that had been "vocal removed" as they put it... it sounded horrible. I took the original Janet Jackson track they'd processed and cut the mids totally on the board cd strip. Sounded 10 times better, especially since it was an ensemble piece. That's how poorly the "vocal remover" process works.

sk · Location: USA

VoodooRadio · Location: USA

Hey SK,
They pulled the thread off the forum. I can't find it anymore either. Unfortunately, people started whining. It was the usual, someone wanting to isolate vocal/music...etc. Good Luck VOODOO

James · Posted - Sat Dec 22, 2001 9:59 pm

When Synt updated the forum they should have included a FAQ section - and possibly a note explaining that it's a good idea to check that before posting.

james

Rod · Location: USA

Graeme is absolutely right about the process. I've actually designed hardware type units that do this. While it's true that the kick drum and bass are usually removed as well, there is a work around. What you do is run the L+R channels thru a low pass filter that only lets the bass and kick out. This is then mixed with the L-R mono "vocaless" signal. Also, about the result being mono problem: Well, the only fix for this is to run it thru a stereo simulator. This usually consists of adding a small delay and mixing this with one of the two mono outputs. The same delay signal is inverted and mixed with the other mono channel (so if the two channels are ever combined, you once again get compatible mono). Now, with all this in mind, it is possible to cut the lead vocal. Even though the lead singer's reverb is in most cases still there, it is easily "masked" when a new lead singer with reverb is mixed over the "vocaless" track. All this can be done with Cool Edit Pro. Hopefully people wanting to do this are just wanting to have some KARAOKE fun with songs not yet availbale on CD/VCD/DVD. There could be some legal issues with professional uses, so unless you have permission, I would not do anything like that. Good luck to all those people wanting to have some fun with this technique. We're here to help you guys out. Happy Holidays! Rod

sk · Location: USA

Graeme · Member Location: Spain

Graeme · Member Location: Spain

beetle · Location: USA

jester700 · Posted - Sun Dec 23, 2001 6:26 am

The problem is, it IS possible...it just sucks.

The high pass filter trick is available in a CEP script I had a while ago; dunno where to find it now. It's also in a small proggie JUST for the karaoke trick called "YoGen vocal eliminator" or something like that - shareware. Pretty good, too, if you HAVE to do this.

I get requests from kids ALL the time for talent shows, Christmas shows, etc. (my wife teaches 5th grade), and for her class' yearly Christmas CD (which turned out nice this year...)

My process:
1) If I already HAVE a karaoke track, cool
2) Look on www.mp3karaoke.com. If they have it, spend $2 for a 128k mp3 download (about 128k mp3 - I DON'T wanna hear it!)
3) If unavailable, look for MIDI files & pick the best one.
4) Use YoGen to make a track from the original & choose between this & the MIDI.

Want a headache? Try listening to a "vocal removed" file MADE from a 128k mp3 original! YEESH! ;-)

beetle · Location: USA

sk, I do see your point, and either you or someone else also made this point earlier somewhere. But, I don't see someone thinking they can remove vocals or instruments just because a preset is there. I'll bet that most who ask the question wouldn't even know where to find it. I kind of feel bad for the people who spend their money for an editor just for this purpose.

Synt MUST rename that preset! I'll bet poor Synt never imagined sooo many people would want to do this when they originally wrote the program because it's been there as far back as I can remember in Cool EDit 96.

Now, I don't think that "other" company is bad, they just spread themselves out too thin and try to be too many things to too many types of users, meaning video production, Acid samplers, and children. I like the fact that Synt wants to concentrate on audio editing and production only.

Oh yeah, you were talking about newbies and learning curves. I never forget where I came from, but I also never had the benifit of forums like these when I first started. By the time I discovered audio forums I had already taught myself a lot by trial and error. I will say that it helped that I had a working knowledge and some experience going in. I also read books. It IS hard for me to imagine being totally green to audio. I've been in it since I was a baby.

Edited by - beetle on 12/23/2001 06:48:56 AM

beetle · Location: USA

beetle · Location: USA

sk · Location: USA

Man, this subject continues to stir up people's thoughts and emotions. Maybe because I have no particular interest in either karaoke or hip-hop I just don't take this all that seriously. And I don't rack my brain to try to figure out what type of people are interested in the process of trying to remove vocals. But what I just remembered as I was reading through the most recent posts is that while I was at a new local music store last week, amidst literally millions of dollars of new and used equipment, including a lot of nice pro audio stuff, there were a couple of guys demo-ing two karaoke machines. They had a couple of pre-made cd's, seemed to be not only musicians (I gathered that from the gist of their conversation - things like: "Yeah, if I ran my keyboard through the P.A. and you plugged your guitar into the Twin Reverb", etc..), but rather knowledgable about sound equipment as well, and they seemed more than content to be exploring the benefits that those machines offered, for whatever purposes they had in mind. It just seems obvious to me that there exists 'legitimacy' for 'vocal-stripped' music, and just because it's not my cup of tea, I likewise don't think it's up to me to judge that whole scene as harshly as it seems to be judged here. I think, more than anything else, that's what I was reacting to in what I considered to be some of the more 'judgemental' threads that I saw posted here.

That, as well as one of my pet peaves, which is companies marketing things that just don't even make rational or business sense, because the truth is that what they say doesn't match up with what that aspect of what their product can do. And I don't know about anybody else, but I end up with a real bad taste in my mouth after such an experience. Yeah, I still use that 'other' product too, but I guarantee you that if/when I find a product that does what I want it to do without any of that other nonsense, the 'other' product will be off my system faster than you can say: "Uninstall".

And finally, without going off the deep end here, maybe the whole Karaoke thing is just a 'cute' extension of the whole good old 'rock and roll fantasy' thing. I mean, who here has never 'air guitared' in the privacy of their own homes or thoughts? lol. (Ouch; just got a flash of Tom Cruise sliding across the floor in his socks...)

(Now, Nicole Kidmann sliding across the floor in Tom Cruise's socks...that's another matter entirely...) "Just take those old records off the shelf..."

:O

Good tunes, folks.

sk

Edited by - sk on 12/23/2001 12:51:54 PM

Heavens to Betsy · Location: USA

rockindel1 · Posted - Sun Dec 23, 2001 11:04 am

Karate chop the singer in the throat just before recording!

beetle · Location: USA

I happen to like some hip-hop and rap, and have been known to indulge in some kareoke, accapella style! 70s disco is alright with me. I just prefer rock & soul. Techno or reggae, I really have no use for.

But some people look upon this stuff as evil.

sk · Location: USA

Heavens to Betsy · Location: USA

SK, in the other recent "vocal remover" forum I noted that many of those who ask these questions come across as impersonal and impatient--they couldn't care less about sticking around and learning more than what they came for. It's "I want this; give it to me quickly and I'll be on my way." That's my definition of laziness. Karoake isn't to what I refer; it's the pie-in-the-sky idea that vocals can be removed from a song with one swish of a magic wand.

So I'm not including you in my "generalisation"! Smile

sk · Location: USA

I hear ya, HTB. But do you at least acknowledge that as long as products such as "Vocal Remover" from otherwise very reputable companies such as AnalogX continue to permeate the market, the perception that such products exist will continue to generate such expectations? It's that whole 'expectations' thing that I see as key, as detailed in some of my prior posts.

sk

Edited by - sk on 12/23/2001 2:22:53 PM

clintfan · Location: USA

Yes, the topic in question was deleted, as I think I was one of the last to reply and it was gone the next day. It was pretty shameful use of the forum, so I'm not surprised it's gone. It went like this: A new user asked "the" question. It touched a nerve, and three regulars briefly flamed her, even using some foul terms. A couple others tried to explain the flaming, but she shot back and stomped off. Several others tried to smooth things over. Email apologies from the original flamers were suggested. Anyway you get the picture-- ugly!

I'm sure when Synt came in and saw what was going on, they just nuked it and instead put up the topic "Some Positive Holiday Wishes..." which I think sums up the more appropriate approach to obvious beginnners. Read the initial post. Let's all learn from this and not do it again. Cheers,

'Some Positive Holiday Wishes...'

-clintfan

Graeme · Member Location: Spain

Heavens to Betsy · Location: USA

Graeme · Member Location: Spain

RossW · Location: USA

(Referring to sk and HTB posts above)

Not only that, but the layperson hears and sees things in pop media (TV movies, etc.) where a recording is "digitally processed" to reveal inaudible stuff, or remove unwanted noise, and assumes that it can really happen, rather than being science fiction.

Alas, we all too often see "impossible" visuals in movies, whether they are genuine special effects done via computer (Titanic, Matrix and a zillion others), or "fake" special effects (Wag the Dog, No Way Out, Rising Sun etc.) done as part of the plot. The assumption is made that the same thing can be done with audio, at the click of a mouse. If it was that easy, why didn't we recreate Nixon's famous 18-minute gap, or make a good soundtrack of the BinLaden video? (All a conspiracy will be the answer.)

And just because something is "digital," doesn't mean it's perfect, or even necessarily good. We may recognize that, but how do you explain to someone inexperienced that their MP3 music file or their GIF graphic is, in fact a lousy representation of the original. It's digital, isn't it? Must be good!

Historical FYI: Back in the mid-60's there were ads in the US magazines High Fidelity, Stereo Review etc. for a box called the "Thompson Vocal Eliminator." I suspect this box did the same phase inversion/center cancellation trick that software attempts, and probably with the same results. Didn't stop the ad copy from promising the moon, however.

Edited by - RossW on 12/23/2001 4:44:45 PM

Edited by - RossW on 12/23/2001 4:47:53 PM

beetle · Location: USA

Clintfan, you must be *VERY* thin skinned also, because NO ONE flamed her. I'd love to see what your definition of what a flame actually is. You go to the Audioforums, you should have an idea of what flaming really is.

No one insulted the girl or put her down. You have a very skewed recollection of what really went down!

I don't think anyone should apologize for telling her that removing vocals (or in this case, instrumentation) cannot be done.

beetle · Location: USA

RossW · Location: USA

sk · Location: USA

sk · Location: USA

Well, to try to sum up...
lol.

I honestly would have to say - especially for someone who is not the least bit interested in removing vocals from songs in the first place - that my interest in this thread was more along the line of process, rather than content. In that regard, the actual content is more or less irrelevant; what counts, in my opinion, is how the issue was/is dealt with. Hopefully, some good things came about as a result of this thread.

What I find most amazing in an almost comical sense, is that despite some continuing very strong opinions, I can't honestly say, objectively, what the 'bottom line' on this whole topic is.
I can see/hear two distinct responses, which can ALL be verified by just looking above at all of the various posts.

Response 1:

It is not possible to adequately remove vocals using CE or anything else to create a vocal-less song that could be used in a Karaoke or hip hop context, so stop trying; stop asking that obviously stupid question; and stop asking for digital miracles.

Response 2:

It IS, in fact, possible to achieve said results, if you're willing to take the time to learn how. It's not that there's anything inherent in the question that precludes being able to achieve satisfactory results; it's more a matter of there not being a quick, push button solution. So stop being lazy and you will be able to achieve what you want.

It seems that some of the strongest responses were actually represented in BOTH groups. I credit those who supplied the technical expertise and/or instructions/directions. And at the same time, I wonder how those who continue to maintain that it's not possible - PERIOD - feel about the 'recipes' to achieve more or less just that. I can only surmise that if after having been through this process for two days now the issue is STILL unclear, (to me, anyway), and I have no vested interest in the content of the discussion whatsoever, I can just imagine how confusing this must all sound to someone who really wants some kind of a concrete answer/vocal-less song.

I don't know; maybe the answer lies somewhere a little further down the road. But at least the issues are being drawn up and reviewed, so there appears to be SOME light at the end of this peculiar little tunnel.

sk

Heavens to Betsy · Location: USA

sk · Location: USA

sk · Location: USA

jester700 · Posted - Sun Dec 23, 2001 10:35 pm

clintfan · Location: USA

Opinions noted. I too was disappointed in the poster's response. I still maintain we can stand to be more diplomatic with first-time posters. And I know what you're talking about with AudioForums.

-clintfan

beetle · Location: USA

beetle · Location: USA

beetle · Location: USA

My browser is acting very weird this morning! How in the heck did my post get combined with sk's post from before? I didn't quote him.

This weird stuff happened on the ICE forum a few minutes ago.

BTW, great music chat board on www.icemagazine.com Come join us! We need more fresh blood! I've been a regular there for four years now. Just one big argumentive, opinionated family! Most of us are regressive baby-boomers and twenty-somethings into classic rock/pop/soul.

Edited by - beetle on 12/24/2001 08:01:52 AM

sk · Location: USA

mixman · Location: United Kingdom

I placed this posting under the microphone thread, by mistake! Oops. It's supposed to apply to this topic, so here it is again:

On the question of why anyone would want to remove vocals from music....

Well, there would be two reasons:

1) To discard the vocal and keep the instrumental - maybe for remixing purposes, more likely for karaoke so they can sing over the backing track

2) To discard the instrumental part and keep the vocal - for remixing purposes, so they can add new music to the original vocal and create a new version.

Computers and the internet have made the world a smaller place, full of attractive opportunities! Ten or 15 years ago, I would be totally in awe of dance remixes and the talent involved in creating them. Nowadays, I am less in awe because I can create my own re-edits, overdubs and reconstructions, rather than wait or hope for the record label to do them! Downloadable programs like CoolEdit provide the tools, and there are many sources of acappella vocal tracks - promo CDs and promo records often have them on, and many of these then get posted on to music download sites so they are fairly widely available. Acappella vocals for three Madonna songs are currently being offered on the ACID website in a competition for creating remixes which will be judged by Madonna's own label. Computer stores have shelves packed with programs for creating music, such as Cakewalk and Ejay, which often come with ready-made rhythm loops.

Because remixes - professional and amateur - are widespread, and because karaoke instrumentals are also fairly easily available, many people assume that it is a simple process to remove vocals from a track. And that's why it's such a common question on forums such as this. I have been asked four or five times by various friends to remove the vocals from a track - on every occasion this was for karaoke purposes for themselves or one of their friends! The Q&A pages in music magazines often get the same question popping up. In this fast-moving technological world, people wrongly assume most things can be done instantly, without training or experience, by pressing a button. I don't defend it, but that's the sad truth.

Jim Smitherman · Posted - Mon Dec 24, 2001 9:08 am