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Will528 · Posted - Thu Oct 11, 2001 7:59 am

Hi gang: Hope you don't mind if I throw a series of questions on the table here: I've only just recently discovered this forum, and I'm pretty impresssed with it's ability to clear up problems and elucidate things, and with all of your collective insight I might add. So I just cant can't resist throwing a whole batch of questions out there. Feel free to answer one or several. Here goes:
1.What exactly is hard limiting, and how is it used in the mastering process?
2.What exactly does the lock in time function do on cep? (theres probably something in the manual or help menu on this so this is kind of a lazy question, but what the hell)
3. Any further tips on mix down and mastering? IE all this stuff I've been reading about "reducing by a certain decibel amount" This is still fairly greek to me, haven't been doing digital audio stuff long at all)

My other questions have to do mostly with using my cdrw:

4. Say I'm making an album: Would converting my wav files to mp3 form to put on a cdr or cdrw be advisable? Or is that a real loss of sound quality? How does audio compression of this sort affect sound quality, and can it be likened in any way to a reduction in bit depth ie does it estimate or round off values?
5.when recording a multisession data cd does it matter which data track you select? IE when it asks you in the beginning, when youre CONTINUING a multisession data disk, whether you want to continue the old data track, or start a second track, does it matter which you select? is there some way of telling if a track is full and you should start another?
6. Can MIDI files be stored as audio files on a cdrw?
7. What exactly is an image file and how is it compiled? What are its advantages over other data compilation and storage techniques? Explain. (Is this starting to sound like your midterm exam in digital audio? why or why not?)
8.Is there any prefferred technique between the quick erase function on a cdrw and the longer taking "physical erasing" of a cdrw?
9.What are dtmf signals?
Well gang have at it!
Thanks,
Will

sundance · Location: USA

Hi Will; I'll have a go at the first few.

1)Hard limiting will allow recording only up to a certain db level, which you select when you activate hard limiting. I am at work now and don't have access to my CEP, but I believe hard limiting defaults to -.1db. In other words, about as high a volume level as you can have without clipping occuring.

2) The lock in time function does exactly what it sounds like, it locks the a wave form in place. In other words, it can't accidentally (or intentionally for that matter) be moved forward or backward in the mix without first unlocking it.

3)"reducing by a certain decibel amount" simply means turning the volume down. A decibel (db) is a unit which measures the level of sound.

4) I would not record a CDR after compressing to an MP3 file, as there is some sound quality lost. I record from the wav file.

Hope some of this is helpful!

Neil H.

sundance · Location: USA

Ooops, typo... in 2) it should say "the wave" NOT "the a wave". Sorry.

urumuqi74 · Posted - Thu Oct 11, 2001 9:57 am

djlyon · Location: Romania

6. NO. Midi files contain just notes which are interpreted by the computer, and the computer its self - through the sound card sound bank - produces the music you hear.
Midi files are just like notes on a portative.

Will528 · Posted - Thu Oct 11, 2001 4:20 pm

Thanks for the replies!
Questions 5, 7, and 8 are still unanswered, so be my guest if you have any thoughts. Also I'd like to ask sundance (Neil H): Can you elaborate any further on hard limiting: what exactly is clipping and why is it important to use hard limiting?
thanks again,
Will

Graeme · Member Location: Spain

5 - It makes no difference in practice which method you select. When the disc is fuul, it's full. However, you might choose one method over another for the sake of organising the various files conveniently.

7 - It's a file which represents a complete 'picture' of what is on a disc. The manner of compilation varies between the different softwares (ie, an image file made with Nero can't be burned usig EZCD). Most useful when making multiple copies of something.

8 - It's the CD equivalent of the difference between erasing a floppy and reformatting it. If you use the 'quick erase' function then the disc is free to be written over, but previous data is still on the disc and can be read by those with the technology to do so. A full erase deletes all the data.

sundance · Location: USA

It's not that it's necessarily important to use hard limiting in any given case, it's just one of many tools available to you in CEP. Hard limiting will simply cut off the recording of sound above the designated db level, whereas compressing will reduce the higher db signals to a more acceptable level (and increase the lower ones, if you wish). There are advantages and disadvantages to both, it is up to you to decide what the situation calls for. Clipping, put simply, is an overload of audio signal, and will result in distortion. Not a very technical explanation for sure, but I think it makes the point!

NH

Will528 · Posted - Fri Oct 12, 2001 8:26 am

Thanks everyone!
all your answers have been a big help. And I mean that.
Talk to y'all later. (by the way I'm not from the south)
Will

invader9000 · Posted - Fri Oct 12, 2001 11:39 pm

djlyon · Location: Romania

invader9000 · Posted - Sat Oct 13, 2001 1:20 am

Oh! I guess you are right! I had my mind to the TOC and said data accidentally. Silly me!

Cheers Cool (Audio) Editors :-)

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

In a further answer to the first part of Q3, I've reposted a basic tutorial from ages ago about getting a mix to (hopefully!) sound a bit like some of Paul Simon's. I've bought it slightly up to date, and I'm taking the opportunity to repost it here. Anyway, I don't recommend the original thread at all...

Basic 'String Line' mix primer
Those of us who have been fortunate enough to have been able to dissect multi-track recordings that sound as good as some of Paul Simon's do will tell you that the qualities that you are looking for have got more than a little to do with compression and limiting. It's a BIG subject, but I can certainly give you a few starting hints here.

For a start, you need to get INDIVIDUAL TRACKS sounding good and smooth on their own. Start with tracks as 'dry' as you can get them and limit any really bad peaks. How? To begin with, you probably need to get the top 5-6dB of each track squashed down to about 1-2dB. This is only a starting figure - it varies widely with individual tracks, especially vocals, which always seem to need treatment. Compression is a little harder to get right, as you have to be careful not to take all the life (dynamic range) out of the track and bring up the noise level. You have to experiment a lot with settings, but after a while you will get an ear for what's going on. Sometimes, cassette recordings 'accidentally' sound good. That's because all audio tape has a built-in mechanism which has a very similar effect to a compresser/limiter when you record it at moderately high levels. Especially cassettes. (It's all to do with magnetic saturation of the tape - any decent audio textbook will explain it.)

Anyway, if you want to add other spatial effects to an individual track, you can, but listen carefully to the results, and be prepared to go through the whole process again. Effects added to a compressed/limited track often stand out more than untreated ones - you may need less than you think. As for time-based (temporal) effects, delay is fine at this stage, but try to resist the desire to add reverb, if you can...

When you've got your individual tracks sorted out, you can position them in the soundfield. You might find at this stage that you've got tracks 'masking' each other, and it may not just be the panning that's a problem. As well as their own 'physical' space, most tracks need their own 'frequency' space to occupy as well, so you might find yourself eq-ing individual tracks to give others enough space to exist in the audio spectrum.

By now, you should be getting a good idea of the relative levels and position of each track, and hopefully the mix is starting to come together. This is often the point where you will need to apply a little overall reverb, and quite possibly a multi-band compressor to your mix, especially for radio. This will get the overall levels higher, hopefully without the bass and drums punching the rest of the track's levels up and down. You don't usually need too much of this, either - you should have got the sound pretty much right earlier in the mix. Quite often this is the 'magic fairy dust' element that gets added at the mastering stage, often with a judicious bit of final eq.

A couple of other things; If you feel that you need to use an enhancer, then try adding it to individual tracks, not the mix, and remember that 'less is definitely more' with them. The other thing is drums. They can be complete buggers to get right. It's often worth doing a complete submix of them on their own (using the same principles as above). Then add the bass. Then do everything else. There are mastering processor plugins like iZotope's Ozone available which can do amazing things to enhance your mix, but you have to be extremely careful to to overdo it.

So the clue to a 'string line' effect is that every sound must be defined within its own space in time, position and frequency, and you have to get them right individually.

Finally, (for everybody else) I KNOW that there are loads of other ways to do mixes, and that everybody has their own little tricks that work for them. But everybody has to start somewhere, and the procedures that I've outlined are pretty basic. When you've learned the rules, however painfully, you can start to break them AND KNOW WHY!

I hope that this is some help - nobody seriously complained about it before...

Steve

Edited by - SteveG on 10/13/2001 03:00:19 AM

djlyon · Location: Romania

You know, after I red you first post, I had a hunch you were refering to data as TOC ! Smile

Will528 · Posted - Sun Oct 14, 2001 6:29 pm

Thanks everyone who replied! Thanks Steve g for that primer, etc. It sounds likethe key to getting good with this is largely (like many other things) just playing around with it and getting sense of how it works.
Thanks again,
Will

sundance · Location: USA

Invader9000;

Since Will528 asked about how hard limiting was used in the mastering process, I assumed he (and everyone else reading the forum) knew that it was a post-recording process in CEP. So much for "assuming"... Perhaps I should have phrased my response differently... sorry.

invader9000 · Posted - Tue Oct 16, 2001 1:49 am

No need to apologize Sundance.

nathan · Location: Australia

..dude..i am a absent minded professor so my order may not be easy reading ..( plus there may be typos ..hahahah)
..but start with tidyness
Tidy your tracks to eliminate noise both hiss and background ..use the ..remove background noise feature...etc..u need to actually silence out passages of bumps etc in the edit view rather than trying to let the compressor do all the work...

Next ...ignore the each track on its own 'crap'...what a load of total **** ..i mean pls ...time wasting in the extreme ..i mean why call it 'mixing' ?

The 'real audio compander' setting is way cool if you are just staring out in compressor techniques.

This is what i do ..cos i go for a mix that will pump and still remain clear at high volume ( not that i like high volumes ) ...

ok ..Using FFT filter i roll off lows on all tracks except bass instruments ...eg bass guitar and kick and also guitars that take on a bass role( i mean destructive edit ..so make a copy )..using a 110Hz or a 130Hz Butterworth Highpass with order at 18....(dont worry audiophiles it dont sound tinny..thats why the FFT settings Wink

)..you can hear what you are cutting outta your mix by previewing these settings on lowpass ...you will hear a lotta mud and boom in tracks u didnt think would be there...

ok ..so now u tidied ..u can play around..either way wen u mix this down ..normalise and hard limit ..u will have a mix that pumps at any level and is clear ...this is a common dance mixing technique..it translates well to all speakers...
For mastering ,download an Ozone demo..run some familiar mixdowns thru it at different settings and learn from there...

..all the best ....

i help cos i care ...i really do i mean that ..i love everything in this world ..even beetles...hahaha:blush:

...oops wrong section..let me cut paste..jeez i am a spaz

Cal · Location: USA

Amrad · Location: United Kingdom