Syntrillium Backup Forums :: View topic - Any opinions on Grado phono cartridge choice?

clintfan · Location: USA

I think that after studying phono cartridge discussions in these forums, you folks have convinced me that Grado is the way to go for my LP restoration work. So probably in the next couple of days I'll place an order with needledoctor.

So... now's your chance! Anybody wanna stop me, or does this sound like a good plan?

I haven't decided between the Gold, Silver, or Red Prestige. Anybody have feelings one way or the other, besides cost? (I think I want something with a pretty even response, especially that can capture the highs if they're present on the LP.)

And what about the headshell? I assume one isn't just as good as another, but needledoctor's site doesn't have many choices. Suggestions?

Thanks,
-clintfan

(For the curious, I have a rock-solid Technics SL1400, and I'm able to do my own installs. Currently I run an Audio- Technica AT231LP which cost me $100 some 16 years ago. I never used it much at the time, and now that I'm finally using it, I remember I never liked this AT as much as my old Shure. But now it's 16 years old and I'm not getting highs, maybe partly due to the piano-based material, but partly due to this AT's "Linear Contact" stylus (the "L" in the model number). Anyway, I thought I'd try a new cartridge... It takes so much time to do this hobby right, and that time is so precious, that front-ending it with an inferior source would be a supreme waste.)

Graeme · Member Location: Spain

I agree with hedgehogtwo. Sticking a super quality cartridge in this tonearm is probably not a good idea. In fact, I'd save a few more bucks and go for the Black model.

In passing, I note they claim a tracking frequency response of 20-55,000 Hz. Seems a bit ambitious to me and I was wondering how they test this?

urumuqi74 · Posted - Fri Jul 13, 2001 5:36 am

That makes a lot of sense. Graeme said it. No need to spend too much if you take into account the turntable tonearm limitations. Anything more than 100$ is just a waste of money. Grado is probably "the" best buy in this category.

Make sure that you get it installed by a qualified tech.

clintfan · Location: USA

Thanks!. Though no one likes to hear their equipment is JUNK, I'm glad I mentioned the turntable, since at least now I won't be in the dark. I appreciate your time and value your opinions, so if this ever becomes more than a hobby for me, now I know I’ll need a new turntable and cartridge.

But for right now, I have some follow-up questions if you don’t mind: being an engineer, I’m trying to learn more detail about all this...

1. In case I do decide to go as low as the Prestige Black, is it safe to assume any of these Grado's, even this bottom of the line, would be better than my current AT?

2. Let’s talk a little about the turntable. Back on 2 July it was suggested here that the SL-1200 is a good one. Although nobody else chimed in to agree, the SL-1400 was identical to the 1200 in every way except it added improved speed regulation, and tonearm return at the end of play (being only semi-automatic). Both are direct drive. So what makes the 1400 bad and the 1200 good (or both bad)? Just the tonearm? DD?

3. I admit that at the end of a side when the tonearm picks up, in CEP I do hear a sort of hollow metallic sound. Is that an example of the “tonearm limitations”? Like, would we have that same hollow resonance throughout the recording (and notice it)? What brand/model turntable would be better in this area? (yes I’ll check the thread but I also hope for an opinion from you.)

4. Finally, if anyone can shed technical light on why the AT sounds so bad, I’d appreciate it for my own closure. I can’t find the original spec-sheet, but assuming the AT231LP was the predecessor to today’s AT331LP, is there something about a “linear contact” stylus that produces undesirable results? Or is it just AT in general, or maybe my tonearm again? (Don’t worry, you won’t hurt my feelings here).

-clintfan

urumuqi74 · Posted - Fri Jul 13, 2001 10:55 am

Hi again,
Since your TT can still play, it's not junk yet!!!

1- You have mentioned that your current AT is not giving "highs". Can it be worst than that? 16 years is a very long time for a cartridge, usually 5 years is reasonnable. The moving parts are not moving as weel as on day 1. The differences between the Black and its higher level are tighter specs (not too much, as I read that the too good blacks are promoted to the next level) and the stylus quality. The vinyl wear effect will be less with a better stylus.

2- Technics TT are mass market products. A few models are standing out especially the DJ's ones but for the price you can get a "quiter" turntable.

3-The only good suggestion I can make is read about it in the specialized magazine. Names such as Rega, Linn should be considered as very serious in the TT business. Have a day trip to your local hi-fi store, bring your records and try the different TT (if still existing in your area).

4-Many reasons can be implied for the AT "bad sound". Was it properly aligned on its installation, is the stylus ruined and we can go down like that asking questions from the tonearm to the speakers.

Graeme · Member Location: Spain

Jim Records · Posted - Fri Jul 13, 2001 7:36 pm

My cardrige is a Empire 4000D/3, which was made for quad play back.
I bought it way back in 1975,& it costs me $350.00
The low tracking forces I set it for is 1 gram.
Anything lower then that, the tone arm starts to skate.
I have many quad records,which back then costs much more then stereo records.
Stereo review claims this cardrige produced the flatest overall responce we have yet measered from a CD-4 cardrige.
Most good cardriges require a tracking force from 1.5 to 2 grams.
My QUAD RECORDS SOUND AS GOOD AS THE DAY I BOUGHT THEM.
Of course if you keep on playing, say your favorites records over & over again,then the diamond needle will start to wear out.
My question is, if the wear of the cardrige is 50%,do you then replace it?
Damage to the grooves of the LP can destroy any ones favorite records,if youn play them too many times over the years.
I say my Empire 4 channel Quad cardrige needle is still in pretty good shape.
I have over 500+ records, & all my records are super clean, & if I see a speck of dust on any of them, I blow it off with Dust Off.
All of my records are super clean,as I am a dirt buster.
So,cardriges can last a long time,if you set it as low a tracking force as possible.
The specs, etc.test labs companies reports I have on the brochure are from 7 Companies,that rave about this cardrige.
Ok, lets hear from any one who still has a quad cardrige.

clintfan · Location: USA

Wow, so much great input! Thanks, all of you.

I think because of space limitations, I'll keep my current SL-1400 turntable for now, but get a Grado cartridge. I'll keep the investment on the lower end of the range instead of the upper I was originally looking at; thanks for saving me the cash! Down the road if I get more space, I'll see what sort of new turntable I can find then (Rega, Linn, etc.), and check it out with the experts. While I work on ordering the Grado, I think my next restoration will be from tape.

We're probably almost done with this thread; let me try to follow up on a lot of what's been said/asked…

First, the cartridge:

How well is it aligned? Hah! Eyeballed. Disapprove

I did it myself when I got it and never dreamed alignment would matter beyond that.
??Where can I read how to do it right?

When did I last replace the stylus assembly? Never. It was so seldom used, I never even thought about replacement. Not even sure if it is replaceable (unlike the Shure M95's, which very obviously were). Nobody asked tracking force: about 1.35 grams judged by the vernier dial (recently zeroed).

Is the stylus ruined? Not at all. Due to various circumstances, I've probably played fewer than 20 LP's during its entire 16-year life, and always kept the arm locked down and/or stylus guard flipped down, so the stylus itself is fine. But I now recognize internal parts do age, so I don't mind replacing it, and my wife's o.k. with it too-- she doesn’t want me wasting my time either, lucky me!

Was the AT cartridge well matched to my turntable? Heck no. Never even knew to ask. The guy who sold it to me was a trusted stereo-store friend. Thinking it’d be good for my LP’s and higher cost meant better, I think I splurged one day and just asked for the best he had. I'm sure he thought he was helping me, but thinking back, probably his stereo knowledge was wide by necessity, but not deep, say, into cartridges specifically or their matching.

In retrospect, I think my whole AT purchase was handled wrong from the start, and it’s probably good that I haven’t played many LP’s on it over the years. Now I want a cartridge that will “be kind to” my LP’s. What I’m hearing is that a Grado can do that. I’m going on faith here, since I doubt I can hear one around here without buying it.

The turntable:

"Junk"? You're right Graeme, that was my own knee-jerk conclusion I drew myself, after having been aiming for a high-end cartridge, then suddenly learning I had to go the opposite direction. Nobody actually said it was junk, they just suggested it has various inadequacies. Just a moment of dismay coming out (I do that). But hey, I asked! Too bad my turntable still looks and seems o.k., it hadn’t occurred to me the turntable itself could be an issue. I’d forgotten it was a budgetary choice at the time anyway, not at all the best available unit. Now I'm just trying to learn some of what to look [out] for in my next one.

Bearings shot? Doubt it. Hasn’t been used that much, and its auto-shutoff feature insured that neither the bearings nor the stylus ever received excess wear when the owner got distracted and forgot to shut it off. Could probably use some grease or oil by now, though. Lost the manual on how to do this, I’ll use my best judgement. I might not recognize rumble in CEP though-- don’t know what to look for.

Drag from the shutoff mechanism? You’re probably right, you’ve got the experience. I never noticed it, unlike the old, idler-wheel based fully-automatic “changers” I once had. Some of those wouldn’t even track an LP without skipping. It’s been 15 years since I had to open my 1400, but my recollection is that since it’s not fully automatic, the mechanical was different, only contacting at the end or if the lever is pulled. Of course I agree any serious turntable would be fully manual.

Whoh, wait a second— I forgot there’s an extra dial hiding back there, set to 1.25. They called it an “anti-skating mechanism”. Well, there would be your drag, I guess. So much for memories!
??Would a fully manual turntable have such a control? I reckon not.

I had not heard about the Technics’ platter ringing problem, thanks for pointing this out. I'm guessing even the heavy rubber platter pad can't stop this. Yes, I do turn the speaker volume down to a whisper during recording.

(For curiosity I've done a little web research and learned that the re-issued SL-1200 (not 1400) is much heavier and has some other fundamental design changes that might make it a serious contender. But not my 1400, and that’s o.k. But in its favor, the SL-1400 was the world's first turntable with a "one-chip linear IC" for control; hasn’t blown out yet either, my greatest fear, or I’d have something else by now.)

“From the tonearm to the speakers:”

We probably don’t want to get into all this now, enough has been said. I plan to get myself a better audio cable for preamp-to-PC, a separate phono preamp just for this work, and just overall become more sensitive to the source signal quality.

The LP’s themselves:

Even before this AT, my LP's typically received little play (at least those I bought after 1975 when I got done breaking-in our family’s first “real” stereo). Most (but not all) are in fine shape, and flat. Often I'd play them once to tape, then listen to the tapes over and over. Beatles cassettes, for instance, still sound good after 14 years and the LP's have been played fewer than 3 times, but after all, it’s the music, not the sound. Wink

(those tapes? Maxell XL II 90, high bias epitaxial)

On cleaning procedures, I must confess I still use the Discwasher system (the manual fat handheld brush) before each play, usually with a single drop of fluid per use or few uses. I never, ever touch a needle to an LP that hasn't been through a cleaning: didn't want to grind dust into it. I also have a DW system for the stylus, but only used it recently once or twice. No matter, since the stylus never saw much use anyway. I only just heard of the dust blower, I'll look into that.
??Feel free to educate me on good cleaning methods, but please don't beat up the ignorant! (but no LP demagnetizers please, har-har)

Thanks again everyone for all your help. As usual, an enriching experience that taught me a lot.
I had 2 or 3 followup questions above in italics, about alignment, anti-skate, cleaning: maybe you have ideas on those? Then we can close this out.

Thanks again, -clintfan

clintfan · Location: USA

Never mind. I think this topic will wander too much if we continue. I've got what I need, and I think I know most of the other answers:

installation: use a pro;
anti-skate: not present on manual table;
rumble: low-frequency modulation when quiet;
cleaning: I'm going to do a search, then start a new thread if necessary, better for others to search on later.

Thanks again all,
-clintfan

Graeme · Member Location: Spain

clintfan · Location: USA

Wow, that was quick! Thanks, Graeme, for setting me straight with your clarifications.

My search isn't finding anything except a KenGAce soap-and-water method for cleaning LP's, so I'll probably start a new thread on that.

-clintfan

clintfan · Location: USA

OK, besides that "Vinyl cleaning" thread from 1/2/2001, I also finally found "Physically Cleaning LPs" from 3/5/2001 so I guess I don't need to post another cleaning topic; enough info is there already. Cheers, -clintfan

urumuqi74 · Posted - Mon Jul 16, 2001 5:28 am

clintfan · Location: USA

Thanks for the cleaning tips. I hadn't thought about being able to hear fingerprints, but it makes sense.

Based on what I've read, for now I think I will stay with my same Discwasher system, but be more meticulous, and maybe get some new fluid: even my giant refill is 15 years old. DW still makes the D4 fluid and has a website, http://www.discwasher.com