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SteveG
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 6695
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 Posted - Mon Jun 25, 2001 5:25 pm
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I think that Beetle's right about a new thread. This one should be easy enough to spot...
I did say earlier that I'd share a bit more stuff with you about CD-R blanks, and the awful truth about Philips and, as it turns out, their CD writer 2000 series. If this is all a little incoherent, I have to tell you that here it's hooter than the French Riviera (hooter?? see what I mean...). Also, it's personally a hellish time to be living in the Borough that Wimbledon's in if you're not a tennis fan. I'm not a tennis fan.
Anyway, this ugly rumour about Philips isn't an ugly rumour at all. I've obtained a copy of the manual, and it's true, I'm afraid. It actually goes like this.
(Background info: Commercial CDs don't need, or indeed have, an ATIP (Absolute Time In Pregroove) area. This is the area on a CD-R where the total spiral length is stored - the bit that some CD writing software will let you ignore and allow you to 'overburn' the CD. Commercial CDs just store what's necessary in the TOC.)
It appears that the Philips 2000 series CD-writers detect the presence of the ATIP and use the mere existence of it to 'use a different track-following algorithm' (Philips) Well, thats all fine and dandy, but the sting in the tail is that they use this as an excuse to switch the analogue output from 4x oversampling to 1x oversampling, which I'm pretty sure means 'none'.
The effect on the line output is as follows:
Frequency response: was 20-20kHz +/- 1dB, is now 20-16kHz +/- 2dB
S/N ratio drops 2dB to 80dB.
THD+noise drops 10dB to an awful -55dB
Channel separation drops 5dB to 65dB@16kHz
Max o/p voltage drops from 3.1 to 1.0 V.
Now this only applies to the line output, which hardly anybody uses on a CD writer (do they?). Philips very graciously say that it has 'no relation to the digital quality of the CD' So, then, why do they do it? Search me. The implications are a bit worrying, though. I haven't been able to find out whether the same 'algorithm transfer' is used in their CD players, or in anybody else's for that matter. Does anybody have any more info on this? We should be told... Actually, back in the 'rumours' again, I've heard that this may well affect other players. Several people have reported that copies of commercial CDs sound different to the originals sometimes. Just how widespread is this?
And as usual, it actually affects a whole raft of CD writers:
Philips CDD 2000 and 2600
IMS CDD 2000 and 2600
Mitsumi CD-R 432 and 632
Plasmon (!) CDR 4220
H-P C4324/4325 and 6020
Grundig CDR100
Hightech CD-R2000
I think that I may have the means to test the theory on my Philips CD850 player - maybe I'll do it. This is a bitstream conversion unit and I don't see how you can alter that, but we'll wait and see just how devious Philips can be.
Steve
Edited by - SteveG on 06/26/2001 01:09:33 AM
Edited by - SteveG on 09/08/2001 10:23:19 AM
Edited by - SteveG on 09/08/2001 10:25:57 AM
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SteveG
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 6695
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Posted - Mon Jun 25, 2001 5:27 pm
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Just how good are your blanks?
I've been checking out what a couple of test sites have made of different makes of CD-R blanks. In general, the branded ones come out best overall, with the unbranded ones having significantly more errors reported. The interesting result was Mitsui, who make a big thing about how wonderful their blanks are. Apparently, it's true! One independant test house reported that they were significantly better. When I can actually get some figures for comparison, I will post them, but the site's down at present.
So I had a look at Mitsui's website, and they have some interesting info about dyes. Apparently they have developed and use a Phthalocyanine dye which is more sensitive to laser light, and more conducive to High Speed recording. They've sold the technology on, and apparently the disks to go for are the ones which are gold, with a greenish hue. They say that their dye formulation is based on products which are known to have long-term stability - they recon in excess of 100 years in the right storage conditions, which brings me neatly on to...
A little basic info on CD-R blanks.
Okay, who thinks that the underneath is the side you really have to be careful with? Well, it's certainly the side that gets put on things and seems most likely to get fingermarks and scratches, etc on. But actually, it's the label side you should really be looking out for, because this is really the business side of the disk. The dye layer is covered by a thin metallic coating, and a 'protective' layer that's only 5-10 micrometers thick, and brittle. Damage this, and atmosheric pollutants like sulphur will corrode the metallising. So you should be careful what you write on the label with - use only recommended pens (they are quite easy to find) and beware of labels. It has been reported that the glue in some labels can interact with the protective coating over a long period of time. No more info on this at present. On some disks, just a careless fingernail scratch on the top can render chunks of the disk unreadable. Just remember - the data is just under the label.
So what about the Polycarbonate that the disk is made of? It's not as indestructible as you might think. Some quite surprising things can cause it to degrade, in fact. For a start, it can absorb water molecules, but washing it's fine as long as you dry it afterwards. The oils in your skin (fingerprints), and in fact any organic compounds can also cause long-term degredation, as can exposure to the sun (BIG no-no!). The other thing that you shouldn't do is flex and bend the disks. This can micro-crack the polycarbonate and the metallising and increase the error rate significantly.
Oh, and to cap it all, apparently the shelf-life of any unwritten blank is between 5-10 years, if it's stored correctly. Now just how stable is that dye?
Steve
Edited by - SteveG on 06/25/2001 5:31:16 PM
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beetle
Location: USA
Posts: 2591
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Posted - Mon Jun 25, 2001 8:20 pm
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I already knew this about CD-R blanks. Phthalocyanine seems to be very robust, and that's what I usually prefer. But, the only place I can find Mitsui blanks is at Fry's Electronics in Tempe. I don't like to mail-order them from Mitsui's website.
The only labels I will use is Neato. I haven't experienced any problems with them yet.
I suspect that Phillips degrades the output of their CD burners is to thwart quality copying through the soundcard. They are known for producing among the worst drives on the planet and selling them to other manufacturers as OEM products. I avoid Phillips products anyway.
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SteveG
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 6695
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Posted - Tue Jun 26, 2001 1:35 am
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| I already knew this about CD-R blanks... The only labels I will use is Neato. I haven't experienced any problems with them yet.-beetle |
You might have known, but I suspect that you are one of the few exceptions that prove the rule that most people don't know, which is why so many rumours and falsehoods get spread around, and there seem to be so many people saying 'I use cheap blanks - they're fine'. These are the ones who back up the only copies of their work onto them, and wonder why things start to go wrong a couple of months later.
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I suspect that Phillips degrades the output of their CD burners is to thwart quality copying through the soundcard. They are known for producing among the worst drives on the planet and selling them to other manufacturers as OEM products. I avoid Phillips products anyway.
-beetle |
I'm not a big fan of Philips (with one 'l', incidentally) products either. I wonder why Plasmon chose to badge up one of these drives?
But I do seriously wonder whether anybody actually re-records CDs from an internal burner into the soundcard via the line socket?
There will be a short amnesty for anybody guilty of this to confess...
Steve
Edited by - SteveG on 06/26/2001 01:37:54 AM
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beetle
Location: USA
Posts: 2591
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Posted - Tue Jun 26, 2001 8:20 am
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| I wonder why Plasmon chose to badge up one of these drives?-Steve G. |
Would this be Plextor under a different name? I never heard of them. Perhaps they don't market here in the states?
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| But I do seriously wonder whether anybody actually re-records CDs from an internal burner into the soundcard via the line socket?-Steve G. |
Judging from the many questions we get here, it seems that many do this.
If I get one of those CD's that I can't seem to rip digitally, I simply record it direct from the CD ROM through the card into Cool Edit. I have a half-decent card with which to do this so there is no noticable degredation.
Edited by - beetle on 06/26/2001 08:22:19 AM
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SteveG
Location: United Kingdom
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Posted - Tue Jun 26, 2001 11:09 am
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| I wonder why Plasmon chose to badge up one of these drives?-SteveG |
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Would this be Plextor under a different name? I never heard of them. Perhaps they don't market here in the states?
-beetle |
I don't think so - it's just that here, Plasmon have had some quite reasonable reviews for some of their CD writers.
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| If I get one of those CD's that I can't seem to rip digitally, I simply record it direct from the CD ROM through the card into Cool Edit. I have a half-decent card with which to do this so there is no noticable degredation.-beetle |
Well, anybody doing this with a CD-R in a Philips 2000 series will not be doing themselves any favours. They'd be much better off using an external CD player, by the look of it.
Steve
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KenGAce
Posts: 166
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Posted - Tue Jun 26, 2001 11:45 am
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One thing I don't like about some of the latest CD-R's is that they write all their company/manufacturing logo, etc crap in color on the label side leaving you little or no room to write anything else directly on the label. Solid gold or silver coated label side CD-Rs with the logo info in the same color were OK as you could write over them. You almost have to buy a label for CDs now.
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beetle
Location: USA
Posts: 2591
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Posted - Tue Jun 26, 2001 1:33 pm
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Not only that, unless your label is black, it won't cover up the brand. Kodak is the worst, next to Mitsui. That is why I do like Sony and the newer TDK blanks, no visibly unsightly brand.
Many companies do make unbranded CD-R's but they're hard to find.
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bragov
Location: USA
Posts: 88
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Posted - Tue Jun 26, 2001 1:51 pm
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You can get Mitsui blanks with no logo. But I was just reminded on another thread that not everyone gets reliable delivery of Internet orders.
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beetle
Location: USA
Posts: 2591
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Posted - Tue Jun 26, 2001 2:04 pm
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| You can get Mitsui blanks with no logo. But I was just reminded on another thread that not everyone gets reliable delivery of Internet orders. |
You can order them from Mitsui but why pay more for just that if I don't really have to? Besides, not everyone has the bucks to drop on a whim. That's when the local Target and Best Buy come in handy.
Edited by - beetle on 06/26/2001 2:05:03 PM
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Graeme
Member
Location: Spain
Posts: 4663
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Posted - Tue Jun 26, 2001 4:33 pm
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| That's when the local Target and Best Buy come in handy. |
Only if you've got one :-)
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bragov
Location: USA
Posts: 88
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Posted - Tue Jun 26, 2001 5:32 pm
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SteveG., when I need to reorder blanks I'm planning to get Mitsui Silver CD-R-no logo (Spindle of 100)@$95.00 from enpacksystems.com, which is in Utah. Does that sound like a good choice to you?
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SteveG
Location: United Kingdom
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Posted - Tue Jun 26, 2001 6:45 pm
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SteveG., when I need to reorder blanks I'm planning to get Mitsui Silver CD-R-no logo (Spindle of 100)@$95.00 from enpacksystems.com, which is in Utah. Does that sound like a good choice to you?
-Vicky |
I don't know anything about Utah, and I'm slightly surprised at the idea of no-logo Mitsuis, but if they really are Mitsuis, then they will be fine. The test data I've seen for them indicates that they are quite capable of burning audio fast with error rates that are effectively insignificant.
I hope you're getting over the 'flu okay, BTW.
I suppose that if you don't like the Mitsui disks, you could always give them away... :)
Steve
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bragov
Location: USA
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Posted - Tue Jun 26, 2001 8:39 pm
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Not trying to give a sick woman a hard time, are you? You can judge for yourself whether or not they're real Mitsuis with no logo, shipped from Utah: http://www.enpacksystems.com/enpacksystems/mitsuicdr.html
Vicky
Edited by - bragov on 06/26/2001 8:40:34 PM
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beetle
Location: USA
Posts: 2591
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Posted - Tue Jun 26, 2001 9:41 pm
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I don't see why they wouldn't be Mitsui. They do make them. Mitsui is the best i've ever used. You can almost feel the quality when you play one back.
I'm reserving judgement on Kodack, although i'm equally impressed by them.
Anyone out there use Appogee, Quantegy, or any other of those "Pro" discs?
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KenGAce
Posts: 166
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Posted - Wed Jun 27, 2001 6:04 am
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I find blank CD-Rs at Computer Shows and most of them have no logo writing on them at all. I don't know who makes them, but they sound pretty good. I look for the gold or gold-greenish colored playing side as they do seem to sound better than the blue colored ones. One bizarre thing I discovered is that with certain brands of gold colored CDs, is that you can see right through them! (not transparently of course). I have one brand of no-names that are just tinted enough that you could use them for a pair of sunglasses! Interestingly though they sound pretty good. I wonder how the reflectivity properties of these kind work since you can see through them?
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SteveG
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 6695
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Posted - Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:28 am
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Funnily enough, I'd already tried that. I can certainly see a CD jewel case that says 'Mitsui' on it, but no evidence of a stack of 100. Maybe I'm just being fussy.
Trying to give a sick woman a hard time... Hmm. Is this just because I suggested that you could give them away if you didn't like them? If a little tease is a hard time, then I suppose the answer is mia culpa. But I was really hoping that you were feeling a bit better. Honestly!
Steve
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dkten
Posts: 45
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Posted - Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:52 am
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You mentioned a special pen for writing on the label side. This is a first for me. What should I use? Where can I find them (web site please?).
Thanks, doug
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beetle
Location: USA
Posts: 2591
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Posted - Wed Jun 27, 2001 9:20 am
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Ken, i'd stay away from those no-name blanks. You just don't know if they came from a quality factory, like so many CD-R's do nowadays. And, beware of anything produced in Tiawan!
Doug, you can use a Sharpie.
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urumuqi74
Posts: 1038
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Posted - Wed Jun 27, 2001 10:08 am
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| Doug, you can use a Sharpie. |
I'll use a clear label first as suggested by one of our collaborators and then use a pen.
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KenGAce
Posts: 166
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Posted - Wed Jun 27, 2001 10:42 am
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I agree. The Sanford Sharpie Ultra Fine Point Permanent Marker works great. They also come in about 6 different colors for you label artists out there.
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bragov
Location: USA
Posts: 88
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Posted - Wed Jun 27, 2001 10:48 am
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Funnily enough, I'd already tried that. I can certainly see a CD jewel case that says 'Mitsui' on it, but no evidence of a stack of 100. Maybe I'm just being fussy.
Trying to give a sick woman a hard time... Hmm. Is this just because I suggested that you could give them away if you didn't like them? If a little tease is a hard time, then I suppose the answer is mia culpa. But I was really hoping that you were feeling a bit better. Honestly! |
Steve, I think you're just being fussy. I've ordered other things from this company, and they've arrived promptly, no problems, and were exactly as described.
I admit to having been grouchy yesterday, but do feel a little better this morning. And I sympathize with your situation (very hot, people blathering about tennis). BTW, that's mea culpa--not much physics here, but lots of Latin. (I'm teasing, OK?)
:-) Vicky
Edited by - bragov on 06/27/2001 10:54:42 AM
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SteveG
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 6695
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Posted - Wed Jun 27, 2001 10:48 am
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I'll use a clear label first as suggested by one of our collaborators and then use a pen.
-urumuqi74 |
You should still be very careful about the pen you use. You shouldn't use a ballpoint at all when the label's on the disk. That really can crack up the protective layer.
So if you really want to use a ballpoint, write the label first, then apply it to the disk.
Now, I know you didn't say ballpoint, but this point is always worth reiterating. Also, rollerballs can be just as bad!
Steve
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SteveG
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 6695
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Posted - Wed Jun 27, 2001 10:52 am
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| BTW, that's mea culpa--not much physics here, but lots of Latin. (I'm teasing, OK?):-) Vicky |
Yeah, I know really - memory going. Anyway, I thought you said that you'd been grouchy - you didn't say anything about being in a vowel mood...
Steve
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bragov
Location: USA
Posts: 88
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Posted - Wed Jun 27, 2001 11:06 am
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Very Good.
:-)) Vicky
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urumuqi74
Posts: 1038
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Posted - Wed Jun 27, 2001 11:49 am
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Now, I know you didn't say ballpoint, but this point is always worth reiterating. Also, rollerballs can be just as bad!
Steve |
thank you for the clarification. I was a little bit in a hurry.
Should have be written: "... and then use the sharpie marker."
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hick
Posts: 14
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Posted - Wed Jun 27, 2001 1:01 pm
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Once, I found a 50 pack spindle of cdr's, unlabled, in Comp USA for 10$ (thats 20 cents a disk). There was no brand name on the cd's and they work just fine.
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beetle
Location: USA
Posts: 2591
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Posted - Wed Jun 27, 2001 1:43 pm
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Hick, have you been reading all of the CD-R related posts?
I would strongly advise you to get some quality blanks and start copying those cheapos. They may wor fine NOW but in six months to a year you may start to experience problems.
You have been warned...
Edited by - beetle on 06/27/2001 1:44:29 PM
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bragov
Location: USA
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SteveG
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 6695
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Posted - Wed Jun 27, 2001 5:24 pm
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I just hope that the folks in Utah won't be too gutted...
Are you feeling any better? Or is the bargain hunting just a displacement activity, albeit quite a useful one?
Steve
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bragov
Location: USA
Posts: 88
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Posted - Wed Jun 27, 2001 5:43 pm
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Well, I was feeling better, but the cough is back, and I'm back to hallucinogenic cough medicine. Isn't it past your bedtime? Seriously, I would like to think I'll be getting real Mitsuis, at a reasonable price. As you have no doubt noticed, the Mitsui website doesn't offer any spindles. Why not? How can one be sure of getting the real thing? I've emailed a couple of their distributors with questions. Who do you get yours from?
Vicky
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SteveG
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 6695
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Posted - Wed Jun 27, 2001 5:47 pm
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So am I still being fussy? Actually, I'm still using up a large quantity of Maxells, which have been pretty good. Bedtime? Well, okay, it's 1.45AM local time, but it's still hot. So I'm waiting until I'm really tired.
Steve
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bragov
Location: USA
Posts: 88
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Posted - Wed Jun 27, 2001 5:52 pm
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And making lascivious posts on other threads to while away the time.....
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SteveG
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 6695
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Posted - Wed Jun 27, 2001 5:54 pm
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That wasn't me! You've got me confused with those 37 people over there!
And anyway, what's wrong with a lollipop in the shower? I'm sure that's what Kojak did.
Steve
Edited by - SteveG on 06/28/2001 01:39:12 AM
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beetle
Location: USA
Posts: 2591
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Posted - Thu Jun 28, 2001 1:16 am
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the grape ones
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CD Writing - a bit more of the truth...