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PapillonIrl · Posted - Fri Jun 08, 2001 6:41 am

Hi Folks,
I have been trying to get the great tone of our bass players Musicman to come through on recordings. I've only recently started to notice (because I've been spending so much time on the drum sound) that it isn't happening. I was using a line out of the bass amp either through a mixer or straight into the sound card. I am going to redo them with mics to see if I can improve on this crappy sound. I know nothing about what quality makes a mic a good drum mic but a bad vocal mic or vice versa...actually my knowledge of microphone technology from gigging experience extends to the 'if you pay more it generally sounds better' level. My question is : I have a good bass drum mic...would this be a good mic to use with our bass amp ? If so how far away do I put it ? I also have two good vocal mics, a decent tom mic and a good guitar amp mic, which are the best ones to use ? How many should I use ? We have a reasonably good sounding room about 30 metres square.
Thanks,
Pap.

Edited by - PapillonIrl on 06/08/2001 06:46:30 AM

Edited by - PapillonIrl on 06/08/2001 06:55:19 AM

SoloTune · Location: USA

Hi Papillon; If you go to this link:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com
and look on the left hand side, you'll see a link called "tech tips". There's a bunch of good info there, and I think theres one that covers what you're asking.

PapillonIrl · Posted - Fri Jun 08, 2001 7:03 am

Thanks SoloTune, but I can only find one relating to bass drum miking...which was actually pretty useful as I am still working on our drum sound also.

PapillonIrl · Posted - Fri Jun 08, 2001 8:19 am

Anyone else have any thoughts ? I am looking for that 'punchy' sound that you hear on alot of 70s funk\soul records. Flea has it on a few RHCP tracks also. Am I aiming to high ? I only have a standard sound card at the moment (I am replacing it soon) but the rest of our audio equipment and instruments are relatively good quality.

BVDD · Posted - Fri Jun 08, 2001 8:41 am

Hi Pap,
I have tried many ways to record bass and
by far the best way has been with the bass plugged DIRECTLY into a mixer channel, then to the soundcard .. no bass amp or mic involved. The only consideration here is if the guitar's pickups are hot enough to get a
good strong signal, but they usually are ..
even with a cheapo bass. Make sure you have a high quality no noise guitar cable. The result is a great CLEAN bass track providing your bass player has good finger tecnique. If he uses a pick, even better. When I mixdown, I always keep the bass guitar and kick drum DRY with no effects .. that's when the clean bass track really pays off.
(The OPPOSITE of this true for 6 string electric ..it's nearly impossible to get a good sound using this direct method.)
Bill.

Syntrillium M.D. · Location: USA

Hello Pap. Well, I'd have to say that really, a direct Bass sound can be good - but with a good D/I box or pre-amp. Direct into the soundcard is probably not going to be a desirable result for most music applications.

You might try a combination of Direct/Amped sound (this will require having a DI box that splits the signal). And, if you're going for that funky, mid-rangey (but not bright) 70s bass sound, a lot of that can be handled on the Bass' EQ and volume settings. Picking (as mentioned) is a great way to maintain the attack and punch.

Just experiment as you did with the drums. As I said, If you can figure out a way in your setup to record both a direct AND mic/amp signal, I think you'll be able to get the best of both worlds.

And oh yeah, don't know which bass drum mic you have, but chances are, it may not pick up a lot of the subtle upper-mids that you'd want...I've used a D112 before, but it's not a preferred choice for bass. Sennheiser MD421, even SM58, some even prefer Condensers on bass...I've used a Rode Nt2 with nice results; warm and phat.

Bonne chance.

---Syntrillium Support

BVDD · Posted - Fri Jun 08, 2001 10:17 am

I agree with Synt that a DI box is the preferred way to go. I must be one of the lucky ones though because my method has worked out great. Note that I said I use a
MIXER first ..then into the soundcard.
Possibly Synt didn't catch that ??

Syntrillium M.D. · Location: USA

Hey BVDD...I saw it - I meant to reference it better :-)

Thanks for all the good words though.

---Syntrillium Support

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

SoloTune · Location: USA

Hey Pap, I sent you to the wrong link. Go back to that same site, but click on the "articles" link instead, right below the tech tips. There's a nice piece on guitar miking there. Its pretty elementary, but still has some good info, and mic recommendations. :-)

NCG · Posted - Fri Jun 08, 2001 2:29 pm

Alrighty- The bass Tone Lets dive into this problem.So far there have been mentionings of Direct boxes and going direct into the mixer then the sound card and direct into a sound card (i dont like that one its not balanced).
I assume you have new strings on there cause that will give you a good start.
Now lets hop into a Hybrid/Science approach-A low "E" bass note takes about 31 feet to fully come to its full potential (thats what happens when you hang around Mastering houses and Dozens of people who specialize in sound analysis)Basically some methods you can try are:
Run it through a Direct Box AND Use a good condenser mic (or a SM57 into a pre amp) and place the mic as far away as you can (31 feet) then place another another mic up close and tight using a SM57 or something along those lines.Now if you record each mic on a seperate track youll have 3 options of various tones and sounds to play with.Of course if this is all being done live and everyone is playing at same time then you would need to isolate the bass amp in a nice big room.
Everything is experimentation really and everything im saying now there will be another person who will shoot me down for saying what im saying-BUT its different for everyone. In addition to the mic techniques described above, boosting the mid range and treble and lowering the bass when you do eq on one of the track (I usaully pick one to give it a twangy edge then mix it in with the bottom end coming from the other mics) will also give you a good funk sound when you mix it in with the other mic sounds. Its good that your trying to get the bass right cause its often over looked and alot of people spend all day and night trying to get the drum sounds good (like tuning the toms just right so that the bass doesnt interfer with the tom sounds) So really what should be happening is getting both of them right and cross referencing each others sound.
Of course there is the philosophy of "Just shut up and jam" Which also works wonders as well.

NCG · Posted - Fri Jun 08, 2001 2:31 pm

You could also just plug into the mixer as well-thats always been the method of choice too

John D · Posted - Fri Jun 08, 2001 2:49 pm

I'm a tech first and a bass player second and plugging directly into the line in on a console from the bass is definetly not correct. The impedance of the pickups is way to high for this input as it loads down the channel.You must use a direct box to do this by the book. How do I do it? Just like BVD and get great results. If you have all the money on the planet you need than by all means go by the book other wise use your head and ears. As a personal plug for BVD,you can trust what he says as I've never seen anyone get more out of less than he has!No substitute for ability

Heavens to Betsy · Location: USA

Check this article on bass recording out:

http://prorec.com/prorec/articles.nsf/files/C05204C8DC2968B78625665000797D4D

The site is a goldmine of advice from sleeves-rolled-up professionals.

Heavens to Betsy · Location: USA

Hey, NCG, that's good advice.

One thing to consider, though, if you mix direct and amp (especially if one of your mics is 30+ feet away) is delay discrepancies and phase relationships. The attacks should be lined up to avoid any cancellation.

Besides that, though, the direct sound can always use a little grit.

PapillonIrl · Posted - Mon Jun 11, 2001 1:27 am

Thanks everybody, thats alot to work with. I will borrow a D/I box too see if it helps.

PapillonIrl · Posted - Mon Jun 11, 2001 6:46 am

Heavens to Betsy · Location: USA

Hey, my pleasure. Happy bottom-ending!

PapillonIrl · Posted - Mon Jun 11, 2001 8:02 am

BVD, you said...

PapillonIrl · Posted - Mon Jun 11, 2001 8:04 am

John D, you said...

BVDD · Posted - Mon Jun 11, 2001 9:31 am

Pap,
There's one way for you to find out .. try it. Whether you get the actual tone you want remains to be seen but if you just want a nice clean bass sound I guarantee you won't be unhappy. I was doing it this way long before I knew about balancing lines, gain structure, or matching impedence .. I just knew it worked. As far as taking John D's
advice, I can tell you that he's built more complete sound systems, done more troubleshooting, and mixed live sound for more top name acts than anyone I know.
He knows what he's talking about.

PapillonIrl · Posted - Tue Jun 12, 2001 3:20 am

Point taken...I wasn't doubting either of you, I was just a little unclear. I won't have a chance to try any of the suggestions for a few days, and because our studio does not have an internet connection I was just trying to get as much information as I could before I go in there at the weekend.
Thanks again,
Pap.