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icky
Location: USA
Posts: 11
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Posted - Sat Jun 14, 2003 9:02 pm
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Hi all,
Some great stuff in this forum - I've learned a lot just from reading. Now I'm ready to ask a question!
I'm putting together a PC that I'll use only for recording voice and sometimes adding some audio background. I'm not a musician and have no need for MIDI or a ton of inputs. I simply need to be able to feed the PC with a decent mic (EV RE20 or similar) and a CD player. Also, I don't need multitrack features - I'm fine with just 2 tracks.
I have the computer ready to go (2GHz P4, 1GB RAM, plenty of reasonably fast disk) and I have the mics and headphones. I intend to use Cool Edit Pro for software.
The hardware is of course the big issue - what to buy? I initially looked at something like M-Audio's Duo which looks good because they have a strong reputation for their mic preamps but I'd prefer not to deal with USB. I do have Firewire on the PC so that would be an option too.
Echo's Mia seems to get a lot of support here but I need something with XLR inputs for the mic. I could get a small mixer to place between the inputs and whatever card/device I buy, but I would prefer not to do that.
Any suggestions for a card/box that can accept both my mic and a CD player?
Thanks in advance.
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SteveG
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 6695
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Posted - Sun Jun 15, 2003 2:17 am
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Quote: |
Echo's Mia seems to get a lot of support here but I need something with XLR inputs for the mic. I could get a small mixer to place between the inputs and whatever card/device I buy, but I would prefer not to do that. |
A shame - the mixer is actually the most flexible option you've got. I wouldn't recommend a card with an on-board mic preamp at all, because putting a sensitive preamp inside a computer case without some sort of armour around it is like putting you in a den of lions!
I don't know if you can still get them, but JoeMeek used to do a mic preamp that fitted into a CD drivebay slot, away from the main noise sources, and which would plug straight into whatever soundcard you had - and it kept it all in the PC. And they're not bad preamps - even had EQ and a limiter in them if you wanted. And an XLR input - oaky, its an inline one that hangs out of the back of the PC, but it has phantom power. Also, it's possible to change this for a chassis-mount socket if you want. I know - I've done one.
But other than that, you will need some sort of a standalone preamp, I'm afraid. And it would help if you indicated what sort of budget you're on...
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icky
Location: USA
Posts: 11
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Posted - Sun Jun 15, 2003 4:13 am
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Thanks for your comments, SteveG. I do see your point about not putting the mic preamp in the PC case.
So lets say you've convinced me that the mixer is the solution. I certainly do see the value in that - gives me a ton of options I won't have without it.
As for the budget, I initially thought I could get away with buying only the M-Audio Duo as I mentioned so I was starting with a budget in the US $250 range. Lets assume I'll get Echo's Mia which I see listed for around $150. I initially wouldn't have expected to get a mixer for $100 but I'm seeing a couple options that look good:
-Behringer EuroRack MX602A - $75
-Alesis MultiMix 6FX 4-channel - $99
I've heard good things about Behringer but I've never owned one - if you have any recommendations for a small mixer for less than $150, I'm all ears.
Of course, now that I'm looking at a mixer I'm starting to think about an amp and some decent monitors...I guess that stuff can come later when I'm ready to spend more.
By the way, looking up the price for the Mia brought up another question. I see the Mia for as cheap as $150 but another version of the Mia with extra MIDI stuff for around $200. Does the $200 version only add MIDI capabilities? Anything else in there a non-MIDI guy might want?
Thanks very much for your response - I think you've already got me steered in the right direction.
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SteveG
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 6695
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Posted - Sun Jun 15, 2003 5:11 am
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The Mia without MIDI is an absolute steal at the moment - MIDI is the only thing they've added.
You can buy a Deadringer if you want, but if you are after something small that will do what you want and comes from a reputable company, then I'd check out the Soundcraft Spirit Folio Notepad, which you should be able to pick up easily within your price range. At least this mixer has its own pedigree, and a long and honourable one at that. And they are nice little mixers - my business partner has one, and she thinks it's great! It will mix up to 4 mics, and your music sources, and has phantom power. And it will work fine with the Mia.
The Alesis has effects you don't need, and to keep the price down, there are rather less other facilities as well. But I think I'd even still rather have one of these than the Deadringer.
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zemlin
Location: USA
Posts: 1156
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Posted - Sun Jun 15, 2003 5:42 am
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and don't forget about eBAY - a lot of mixers out there for sale. The only Folio Notepads currently on the list are in the UK. Older Mackie 1202's go for around $150. Since you can get the card for $100, it gives you a little more breathing room for a mixer.
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icky
Location: USA
Posts: 11
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Posted - Sun Jun 15, 2003 5:44 am
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The Notepad looks like a good choice. The features are virtually identical to the Behringer. It is just slightly more - likely worth it for a more reputable company. Thanks again!
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Bobbsy
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 327
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Posted - Sun Jun 15, 2003 11:20 am
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On the theory that there is strength in numbers, may I put in another vote that the addition of a mixer is a very worthwhile option for your application...and that the Soundcraft Spirit Folio notepad is a good choice. I installed a couple of these in installations I put together for clients and they've been very happy with them
Newer Behringers aren't THAT bad and represent okay value for money, but I still prefer the Soundcraft pedigree.
One thing I'd like to comment on: you say that you don't need multitrack for also mention you want a V/O mic and CD facility. Assuming you wish to mix together music and voice (and apologies if I'm wrong) are you sure you wish to limit yourself to balancing these sources on the fly? I'd guess that the multitrack (Studio) option for CE2K would be good for you.
Also, you WILL need decent monitoring--I find voice can be harder to get right than music!--and you WILL need to think about the acoustics (both isolation and deadening) of your recording space.
Bob
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icky
Location: USA
Posts: 11
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Posted - Sun Jun 15, 2003 4:54 pm
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Thanks for your comments, Bob. You guys have convinced me to go the mixer route and the Notepad looks perfect.
Your point about multitrack is good too. I do intend to get Cool Edit Pro so I can do some multitrack stuff.
Given my limited budget, my monitoring solution will be limited to my not so bad home stereo for now which isn't at all right for this application but will have to suffice for a while. Nearfield monitors are on the wishlist and I hope it won't take too long to add them.
I have a bit of experience creating an adequate acoustic environment without spending a ton of money so I'll have a lot of experimentation to do there to put together a setup that sounds ok without buying an isolation booth for the living room. :)
Thanks again.
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icky
Location: USA
Posts: 11
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Posted - Mon Jun 23, 2003 10:57 pm
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I have another question for you guys about this configuration (Mia, Folio Notepad, mic connected to mixer). As my intention is to record mostly my own voice and I'll want to use some of the effects from CEP, I'm wondering about monitoring.
With this setup, I'm hoping that I can feed the mic to the Mia via the mixer and monitor my voice with the CEP-applied affects via the outputs from the Mia feeding back to the Folio Notepad & headphones in real time. Is that a reasonable thing to hope for? I'm pretty sure the mixer can handle this but I'm not sure the software/Mix combo does. Comments, suggestions?
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Graeme
Member
Location: Spain
Posts: 4663
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Posted - Tue Jun 24, 2003 3:41 am
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icky wrote: |
With this setup, I'm hoping that I can feed the mic to the Mia via the mixer and monitor my voice with the CEP-applied affects via the outputs from the Mia feeding back to the Folio Notepad & headphones in real time. |
No - you can't do this. CEP's FX only work on a previously recorded track, not on the data being recorded.
I'm afraid that Syntrillium's definition of what represents 'real-time', differs somewhat from mine. This rather ambiguous use of the term has led a number of users up the same garden path you are following.
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icky
Location: USA
Posts: 11
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Posted - Tue Jun 24, 2003 7:14 am
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Shucks. I thought maybe the mixer or the Mia was going to be the limitation here. I didn't think about the software.
Basically I'm just a former radio DJ who is trying to put together a really basic system to do some demo tapes and possibly some not-too-professional voiceover work. I'm very much used to working in a studio where I have an effects box of some sort that I can noodle with while I talk into the mic to get the sound I want before recording. I'm not totally opposed to recording dry tracks of my voice and then doing the noodling but it is a different process and sort of changes my creative approach. Not necessarily a bad thing but different than I was expecting.
Maybe it is taboo to ask such a question here since Syntrillium has been so kind to provide such a great venue for us but are there are other software packages in the same price range with the same hardware that would allow me to take the outputs of the Mia back into the mixer so I could monitor the audio that is being recorded in real time? Or am I opening up a whole new can of worms by wanting that?
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Graeme
Member
Location: Spain
Posts: 4663
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Posted - Tue Jun 24, 2003 8:25 am
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Some audio/soundcards have on-board FX processing. This might be one route you could consider taking. With the exception of a couple of really high priced units, I suspect that installing one of the others would actually result in a lower quality basic signal, not really such a bright idea.
Hardware FX units are not that expensive - certainly not for the sort of thing you are talking about - and there's plenty of choice. My inclination would be to purchase one of these and use it with your mixer, much in the way you have become used to.
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Craig Jackman
Location: Canada
Posts: 909
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Posted - Tue Jun 24, 2003 9:37 am
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It depends mostly on what type of voice performer you are. If you absolutely have to have the "feel" in your headphones, well you either have to shell out for hardware compressors and/or eq, or find another kind of software that lets you monitor and record with effects. If you can perform just hearing your mic in your headphones you can do this many ways.
... as an aside, if you are just doing straight voice do you even need headphones? I do most of my voice work phone-less.
Assuming you REALLY want to use CEP (this is the CE/CEP forum after all ... and good choice BTW), just record your takes into the computer. This offers up all the built in effects to play with, and they really are quite good. You also get more opportunity to play with eq, compression, limiting, and reverb to get exactly the right feel and tone. Then again, this was my approach even in analog days ... record totally dry, add eq and comression when coming back off tape in a mixdown.
Lastly, the future is digital, and you are seeing more new and exciting things coming out as plug-ins rather than as hardware boxes.
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Craig Jackman
Production Supervisor
CHEZ/CKBY/CIOX/CJET/CIWW
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada |
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icky
Location: USA
Posts: 11
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Posted - Tue Jun 24, 2003 10:55 pm
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Thanks for the comments, guys. I am considering adding a hardware FX box of some sort but I think I will hold off until I get everything set up and see how recording dry works for me. I'm sure I can get used to the difference but if I can't, I'm sure there are some great deals waiting for me on eBay. :)
Your point about headphones is valid, Craig. Again, it is just a matter of getting used to something new - which I'm all for. My radio experience was often more about absolute speed. I worked for a small station with tons of commercials and the production load was massive. I learned to do single-take 30 second spots direct to cart including firing off music and FX while doing the voiceover. While I'm not proud of any of that work today - you do what you have to do. This scenario is much different of course and my standards for production quality are much higher. Progress!
I'm certainly more excited about investing in FX plugins for CE than investing in hardware.
Thanks again - its time for me to start ordering some gear!
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Bernie
Posts: 15
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Posted - Fri Jun 27, 2003 9:08 am
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I agree with icky on the need for genuine 'real time' monitoring in Cool Edit Pro. Perhaps this is something Adobe will do when they get hold of it, all their products are in the pro range of software, and if Cool Edit is going to be in the pro range it will need to have 'real time' monitoring to compete with the likes of stineburg et al. It will also need to use VSTs etc. etc. All these things will have to happen. It's just a matter of when.
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Craig Jackman
Location: Canada
Posts: 909
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Posted - Fri Jun 27, 2003 11:41 am
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I resent that. CEP is already in the "pro ranks". It's used in thousands of radio stations world wide. It's used in a smaller number of recording studios world wide. CEP is as pro as you want it to be, after all you're the one flying the plane! It's a great piece of software, packed with features and attractively priced. Is it perfect? No, show me something that is, feature for feature and dollar for dollar. Does it need VST? I don't think so, I've found everything I need included, though there are some RTAS compressors I'd like to playwith. That being said, they should take a look as better support of VST wrappers for those users that need it. Does it need real time effects support on record. Again, I don't think so. If you absolutely must have it, perhaps you should look at other software.
CEP was never about being the perfect software. It's about being amazing value. It's about doing things that are, well, cool for lack of a better word. It doesn't do MIDI ... and I'd venture that there's a lot more users wanting MIDI than real time effects in record or VST or DXi support.
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Craig Jackman
Production Supervisor
CHEZ/CKBY/CIOX/CJET/CIWW
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada |
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Bernie
Posts: 15
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Posted - Fri Jun 27, 2003 12:52 pm
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I follow you, I do understand your resentment, but it's time to face facts. I have been using CEP for a couple of years myself and I love it too, but it's not Pro class yet, no way in hell. No VST and no real-time ~ no serious musician uses CEP, sorry. The things you think it needs and doesn't need are your opinion and, frankly reflect a narrow view of the entire recording industry, only a small part of which is the radio industry. "I've found everything I need"?, well you haven't found very much, it reflects a lot of naiivete, there is a whole universe of VST instruments, software and effects to discover. Anyway, we shall have to wait and see what happens to the program. I just cannot see CEP remaining as it is once Adobe relaunches it. They don't yet have a flagship audio product, and this will be the one for them. If Cool Edit is going to be the Premier or Photoshop of the professional audio software market, it will have to see Cubase, Cakewalk and E-Magic head-on. It won't be able to that if it doesn't have the above neccessary to compete in the Pro audio market. The only other way, would be if Adobe went for the DJ/mixing software market, by just adding tools to do BPM mixing. That is also a growing area in audio software. But I just can't see adobe doing that, it's too limited. They could concievably incorporate it into something like Premier, but that would be a waste. Actually it would be nice if someone gave us a little clue as to Adobe's plans for Cool Edit.
Forgot to add: Adobe are not a "value-for-money" company, Photoshop costs $600, not £120:D. Adobe is a high class, professional outfit serving professional film-makers, video and TV production companies, graphic designers, thousands of newspapers, magazines and Print houses. What kind of audio product could Adobe make, and who would they aim it at? think about it.
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Emmett
Location: USA
Posts: 59
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Posted - Fri Jun 27, 2003 1:01 pm
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I simply need to be able to feed the PC with a decent mic (EV RE20 or similar) |
I beg you not to waste your money on an RE-20. It's perfect in a radio station because it is built like a tank and radio people aren't delicate. But if you will be the only one using the mic, and you will take care of it...you would be much better off to get a studio condenser instead of the RE-20, which is a dynamic mic that was designed for bass drums. The Rode Broadcaster has a neat sound and will cost you less than the RE-20. In fact, anything Rode, or AKG. They can't take the abuse, but they will sound 10x better.
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Emmett
KPNT, St. Louis, MO |
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Bernie
Posts: 15
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Posted - Fri Jun 27, 2003 1:22 pm
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oops I crashed the news .. sorry
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SteveG
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 6695
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Posted - Fri Jun 27, 2003 5:25 pm
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Bernie wrote: |
I agree with icky on the need for genuine 'real time' monitoring in Cool Edit Pro. Perhaps this is something Adobe will do when they get hold of it, all their products are in the pro range of software, and if Cool Edit is going to be in the pro range it will need to have 'real time' monitoring to compete with the likes of stineburg et al. It will also need to use VSTs etc. etc. All these things will have to happen. It's just a matter of when. |
I'm not quite sure what 'genuine' real time monitoring is, apart from something that was absolutely neccessary on old analog tape recorders, and some VTRs of my acquaintance. If you use an A-D-D-A codec and record in CEP without overloading, then what you get back will be a mirror image of what went in. If you are talking about the need for providing a monitor feed, back to the card's output, then most soundcards do this. If you are talking about adding effects 'through the loop', then they will either get recorded this way, or make for a rather complicated monitoring path. And in my pretty broad experience, there are not that many occasions on which this form of monitoring is of any real value. Yes, you can add a bit of reverb to a singer and feed it back through the cans - but you can easily do this with an external unit. And as for laying tracks with effects added - well, that's about as unprofessional an approach as there is, because it completely restricts your ability to treat the tracks afterwards.
This 'real time' monitoring won't be added to CEP as it stands, anyway - because CEP uses the Windows record facility, and concentrates on making sure that the output of the soundcard(s) gets recorded faithfully, with as few processing interruptions as possible. So if this facility was added, it would involve a complete rethink of the way the S/W works - it's not a bolt-on option for this release. Yes, I know that it's possible to implement a scheme that does it - but it uses up a considerable amount of processing power to do so, and if you ask it to work on multiple tracks at the same time, your PC very soon falls over. One of the major advantages of CEP is that it will run on a relatively low-spec machine, and the addition of anything that adds a processing overhead is going to reduce its capabilities in that direction quite considerably. This has never been percieved as being a desirable thing to do, as far as I'm aware.
As for CEP being unsuitable for music recording - then to an extent, I'd agree. But that's not its real intention. There is a very real danger in making S/W that tries to be all things to all people - it inevitably fails to satisfy anybody completely, because in attempting to achieve this, it becomes unwieldy, and rather daunting to the novice user - just like Steinberg's products are. And Cakewalk, or whatever it's called these days, isn't much better. It's true that there have been some additions to the Multitrack mode that seem to be taking it in that direction, but personally, I think that going too far in that direction is likely to be a mistake - for the reasons I've just mentioned.
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jonrose
Location: USA
Posts: 2901
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Posted - Fri Jun 27, 2003 8:32 pm
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Bernie wrote: |
I follow you, I do understand your resentment, but it's time to face facts. I have been using CEP for a couple of years myself and I love it too, but it's not Pro class yet, no way in hell. |
Don't tell certain people around here that... Hee-hee!! ![Wink](../img/s/icon_wink.gif)
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No VST and no real-time ~ no serious musician uses CEP, sorry.
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Hmmm.
Well, thanks for the information, friend! ![Smile](../img/s/icon_smile.gif)
I have a feeling that many people around here might have some different news for you, on that count... I won't take offense, though. Everyone is free to think what they like, sitting behind their keyboard - For instance, you've never met me or know what I do, so all you could do is extrapolate from what you see here. No problem... But lots of folks have attempted to tell other people that they aren't what they really are, based on some isolated facts (if you follow my meaning)... ![Wink](../img/s/icon_wink.gif)
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The things you think it needs and doesn't need are your opinion... |
Ah... but are you saying that this rule doesn't apply to everyone...? I'm just trying to understand your points, here - no matter how many times I read this, I still perceive that you have implied yourself as being exempt from this rule. ![Wink](../img/s/icon_wink.gif)
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...and, frankly reflect a narrow view of the entire recording industry, only a small part of which is the radio industry. |
I'm not sure it reflects anything - his statements were just statements. I have to assume from your post that you are, indeed, well-connected with all aspects of the industry, and are also well-versed with CE, so I am left to ponder why you would be so hard on a piece of software that is still evolving, and has just now (finally!) gotten some big dollar backing? If CE is really such a substandard application, why do so many people use it as an editor in their studios alongside their other apps? Industry rags reflect this fact all the time. Of course, most people have all kinds of software, and use what they need for the purpose at hand. Engineers and producers that are the highest in demand can use whatever they want. But there is a considerable segment of even that contingent who see fit to include CE in their arsenals. I certainly don't wonder why. ![Wink](../img/s/icon_wink.gif)
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"I've found everything I need"?, well you haven't found very much, it reflects a lot of naiivete, there is a whole universe of VST instruments, software and effects to discover. |
While part of what you say might be reasonable, I must say that I think you've stepped across the line a bit, here - I'm having trouble understanding why you've suddenly appeared on these forums with all your guns drawn and blazing away (and not just in this thread). Craig works in radio. Whatever you may think of that, it's no excuse for what I perceived as a personal attack, which isn't well-tolerated here, by the way - by the members or the moderators. Constructive discourse is encouraged here - but please don't try to tell longtime industry veterans what they do or do not know, particularly here. Just a friendly reminder. After all, as regards what he was actually trying to convey, I believe you took his comment out of context. But of course, that's because I've read a lot of Craig's posts, and know how he expresses himself...
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Anyway, we shall have to wait and see what happens to the program. |
Exactly!!! Now, this I can agree with.
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I just cannot see CEP remaining as it is once Adobe relaunches it. |
No quarrel with that, either - who could expect them to leave it completely alone? I would expect radical improvements, given the pool of resources and the expertise in coding that they now have at their disposal! ![Smile](../img/s/icon_smile.gif)
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They don't yet have a flagship audio product, and this will be the one for them. |
On the contrary - they didn't have an adequate audio product AT ALL, and realized they needed one, ever so badly. So they found a high-quality engine they could acquire and build on. And they're using the same people who built that engine to help build a better one. So they really do have a flagship audio product, as far as I'm concerned. But that's just an opinion...
Of course you know they've done this before, i.e. Aldus, etc., etc.....and the results have always been good.
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If Cool Edit is going to be the Premier or Photoshop of the professional audio software market, it will have to see Cubase, Cakewalk and E-Magic head-on. |
Although from that angle, I see your point, I'd still disagree slightly - CE has always been good at what it does - edit, mix and effect audio. With, say, Cubase, it's not as simple to manipulate audio as it is in CE, but of course, Cubase is certainly a powerful program - if we must make these comparisons at all. And that's why Adobe wanted CE in the first place, I think. It's simple to use, and it renders audio with exceptional quality.
So, figuratively speaking, a "roundhouse kick" to the competition might be more appropriate, perhaps.... Heh! ![Big Grin](../img/s/icon_big.gif)
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Actually it would be nice if someone gave us a little clue as to Adobe's plans for Cool Edit. |
I have trouble believing that they would trade-out Syntrillium's past policy of non-disclosure about their activities and intentions...but of course that's just another opinion... Heh! ![Smile](../img/s/icon_smile.gif)
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Forgot to add: Adobe are not a "value-for-money" company, |
Disagree. Why would you buy any of their products if they weren't? Such purchases would be ludicrous if their products were mediocre or bad, regardless of their cost.
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Photoshop costs $600, not £120:D. Adobe is a high class, professional outfit serving professional film-makers, video and TV production companies, graphic designers, thousands of newspapers, magazines and Print houses. What kind of audio product could Adobe make, and who would they aim it at? think about it. |
But that's just it... They would make it for people who need the tools it offers, of course, and do it regardless of the cost. And if they do it very well, as we may rightly expect that they will, then in my humble opinion that puts it right back into the value-for-money category, regardless of its cost. You don't buy expensive tools just to put them on a shelf and not use them, and this isn't a collector's competition to see who can buy the most toys. If a tool works well, we use it, don't we? If it's inexpensive or at least reasonably priced, then that's an added advantage.
The simple fact is, CE was good enough for Adobe to even consider in the first place. That's says a lot about the results you can obtain with it. Since this aspect hasn't been pointed out, except in a circumspect sort of way, I felt it appropriate to point it out, now.
You may not like a lot of things about CE, but the fact is that it delivers high quality audio, time after time. It makes a lot of money for a lot of people. Yes, myself included. Am I biased? That's for everyone else to decide. I try to be as objective as I can be, though, and this software is an excellent toolset by any standard, regardless of its cost.
Anyway... the main thing is, take it easy up there on the soap box. It can get mighty slippery. Heh-heh!!!! We try to keep discussion on the up and up, here. If you didn't intend an attack, then fine - a little more complete explanation of your points, with some background, might be welcomed by all.
And...
Sorry to hijack your thread for my soapbox, icky, and apologies all around to the rest of you. Back to the business at hand... which was:
New PCs and new audio cards! :)
Best... -Jon
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icky
Location: USA
Posts: 11
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Posted - Fri Jun 27, 2003 9:15 pm
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This thread certainly has been quite a ride! While you guys have been arguing up there I bought a Soundcraft Spirit Folio notepad and dusted off an old SM58 (still working on the right mic, thanks for your comments Emmett - the RE20 was a favorite from my radio days but I'm looking for more appropriate alternatives for my home studio) and now I'm looking for that $99 Mia that everyone talks about but seems to be $150 everywhere I look. I'm very close - and your comments have been extremely helpful. Thanks.
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post78
Location: USA
Posts: 2887
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Posted - Sat Jun 28, 2003 10:10 am
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...no serious musician uses CEP, sorry. |
Clearly you haven't spent enough time reading the many magazine articles containing interviews of serious (and quite well known) musicians using CEP. A small few have even been mentioned here on the forums, which shouldn't be too hard to find.
Apology accepted.
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"I've found everything I need"?, well you haven't found very much, it reflects a lot of naiivete, there is a whole universe of VST instruments, software and effects to discover. |
How do you know he hasn't already discovered them? CEP has everything that many people need, another point easily noticed through a brief look at the archives. I'm with Jon, except I wouldn't have been so nice about it.
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Answer = 1. Probably.
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ozpeter
Location: Australia
Posts: 3200
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Posted - Sat Jun 28, 2003 6:00 pm
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"I've found everything I need"?, well you haven't found very much, it reflects a lot of naiivete, there is a whole universe of VST instruments, software and effects to discover. |
I don't understand that. I use VST effects and instruments within and beside Cool Edit, via well-known and inexpensive / free routes (VST wrapper or Synthedit), I can record and monitor with effects if I really want to via such mechanisms - Cool Edit is the heart of my system and I simply add on the bits I need as and when I need them. Others might well not need them and are probably glad not to have had to pay for them.
- Ozpeter
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Bernie
Posts: 15
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Posted - Sun Jun 29, 2003 12:40 pm
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Quite finished? :D
I know that I am making more sense and expressing more truths than the little group of friends in here would have everyone else believe. From the length of some of the replies in here, it's obvious a lot of you are just a bunch of old women, and very bored too.
Here's the axe I have to grind:
Guns blazing? Might seem that way, yes, but I don't care about that. If I see a rude person, or an unhelpful person, or a show-off, or a pompous git, no matter where it is, I will go for them!
When I first came here a few days ago, I did what everyone does, I spent a couple of hours reading back threads. I could not believe the rudeness and how short some people could be, and to people who seemed like newbies and who were desperate for help. I've seen this shock and awe tactic in other forums, usually perpetrated by members who have thousands of posts. It's the 'aggressive sell' tactic as used by American media, that tries to tell you that you are an idiot if you don't buy this product or watch that TV program. It's designed to scare newbies into instant respect. Hell, I can't believe some members in here actually tell people off, for not doing this, not checking that! Have a bit of compassion for less experienced people will you. Give people a chance. Nobody is interested whether you've had to deal with idiots in the past, or with the same questions. If you can't help someone, why enter the thread just to throw your weight around and humiliate a newbie? Is that why you come here every day? Is that how you get your kicks? How sad. When I offer to help someone, I find links to threads, find URLs to manufacturers etc. and I help. I don't say, do a search, or some give some vague non-comital opinion and then massage my own ego by writing reems about how much I know about the subject, then insult them for not providing enough information, and to top it off give no real help. Can't be bothered to help properly? Why reply to people?
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kylen
Posts: 290
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Posted - Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:38 pm
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Quote: |
When I first came here a few days ago... |
Bernie, Bernie, Bernie - sit down and have a cold one (or a warm one ) at your corner pub! Give it a little time...
When I first came in here a short time ago I thought a few of the same things. After I while I could see the depth and by doing research earlier in my discovery process not get backed into a corner or so far down a rabbit hole that I come in here and say "I'm not sitting here looking this up" like someone recently did.
Its just a little micro-society in here same as when I open my front door. Egos, people righted (usually), people wronged (sometimes), arguments, trolls, devils (there's even a little similie devil if it fits you that day), cranky folks. All depends what someones mood is.
You've got your approach, I've got mine. I see some of the same things on other forums of any substance.
You're gonna read some of my posts and go - this guy is pretty anal about this compression thing. Yep that's true, and as soon as I get it figured out to my liking then I'll forget about the long winded thing and be able to offer occasional candid help. But more importantly I'll be able to shut up and go off and do it better with the help I get here.
So keep givin us your thoughts on products features and various ways to solve problems you've encountered. When you do it here I think you'll find most folks will have a Cool Edit bias. That doesn't surprise me any! Personally I use CEP, Sound Forge, and Sonar as hosts that solve the types of problems I run up against.
If you've got a business case or specific problem you'd like a future version of Cool Edit to solve then start a thread on it, offer feed back and get feedback. Kind of like that VST wrapper support thing we've been talkin about over yonder. If you want to add the guns blazin thing to counter other guns blazin then I guess you will, it's a society though so that can interfere with the passing on of accurate information.
Meet some people, share your chops. What do use Cool Edit for and why ? What's a cool problem you've solved...:D
kylen
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Graeme
Member
Location: Spain
Posts: 4663
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Posted - Sun Jun 29, 2003 2:30 pm
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Bernie wrote: |
When I first came here a few days ago, I did what everyone does, I spent a couple of hours reading back threads. I could not believe the rudeness and how short some people could be, and to people who seemed like newbies and who were desperate for help. |
I think one of the problems you have is that you don't understand this forum as well as some of the longer-term members do.
It's frequently (no, that's an overstatement, let's say sometimes) invaded by idiots, in the form of trolls and non-registered users (ie, thieves) most of which can be spotted at arms length on a dark night. These characters get extremely short shrift in here.
Then there are the people who are simply too damn lazy to RTFM and expect the rest of the forum members to re-write it for them in here. They don't get much of a welcome either.
Then there are the genuine newbies who really need some help but start off by bad-mouthing everything and everybody around. Not a lot of help is likely to be generated by this approach either. [NB: I think you personally should take note of this one, since you seem to be sailing very close to the wind in this aspect.]
Finally, there are people who make incorrect statements, usually about practical physics. They are likely to get a 'nonsense' type of answer and told to go and read a few books.
Once all this chaff has been sorted from the wheat, then a lot of help will be forthcoming.
Of course, there is often a recommendation to read up on the subject. This is because, I believe, most here believe in the maxim about "teaching a man to fish..." and they see this as better for the new users development if he learns how to do these things for himself.
Most of what is discussed in this forum exists in other places on the 'net. If this forum didn't exist, people with questions would still be able to find the answers - they just need a little encouragement to do so for themselves.
When I went to shcool, one of the first things I was taught - after the three R's - was how to use a library indexing system. On that basis, the school knew I was well equipped to find out, for myself, about anything they had forgotten to teach me. I don't know who instigated that principle, but I have been truly grateful for it over the years.
Bernie wrote: |
I've seen this shock and awe tactic in other forums, usually perpetrated by members who have thousands of posts. |
As one of the eleven members with more than 1,000 posts (not counting Admin and moderators) I feel that I am as qualified to answer that accusation as anyone.
If you've been around other forums, then you will already know this is one of the best there is - both in number of users and the general overall quality of what is written. If you haven't, then I suggest you go to a few of the others and try to throw you weight around there, as you have here. I think you would get some extremely short answers.
Have you actually read all the back posts by these eleven? Had you done so, I think you might be inclined to withdraw the accusation that they don't help people. Furthermore, I doubt if there is any regular member of this forum who hasn't benefitted, at some time, by some insight or observation from each one of those eleven.
Thinking about it, you are on very thin ice with this argument, since I personally pointed you to something not a couple of days ago - so you can't say I didn't help you. However, if this is the sort of diatribe you are going to dish out here, you will be able to strike me off your list of 'helpers'.
One last point. Help offered here is free - no charge - gratis - and as such is very valuable, since it would cost a small fortune to employ a consultant to cover the ground which has been covered here over the years. Some people here are actually in the consultancy business so, in a manner of speaking, they are cutting their own throats. Even so, they still provide their valuable insight and knowledge to the rest of us for nothing. This is not something to take lightly and they certainly won't respond to your approach very well.
The point is, if you are not paying for it, then you are in no position to call the tune on how it is delivered. Be grateful for the crumbs that fall from the table (which are many, if you but looked).
Bernie wrote: |
Hell, I can't believe some members in here actually tell people off, for not doing this, not checking that! Have a bit of compassion for less experienced people will you. |
I could argue that I can't believe how many people apparently invest $250 in an application (not to mention the rest of the stuff that goes with it) for a business they know absolutely nothing -zilch - zero about. So often, it's not so much the 'less experienced' we have to deal with, but the totally ignorant.
Personally, I have no problem with telling people like this to go away and learn some fundamentals first.
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post78
Location: USA
Posts: 2887
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Posted - Sun Jun 29, 2003 2:34 pm
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Quote: |
If I see a rude person, or an unhelpful person, or a show-off, or a pompous git, no matter where it is, I will go for them! |
So, I take this to mean that you're going for yourself, now? I am "quite finished", because you are quite worthless. So long, "chummmmmmmmmmmm-p".
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Answer = 1. Probably.
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VoodooRadio
Location: USA
Posts: 3971
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Posted - Sun Jun 29, 2003 3:04 pm
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Man O Man, I will just be glad when the bell rings and the majority of these problems are sitting behind some Middle School desk.
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I said Good Day!
Voodoo
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ozpeter
Location: Australia
Posts: 3200
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Posted - Sun Jun 29, 2003 7:22 pm
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I note that Bernie has made 15 posts here so far, including 7 which were concerned with general criticisms of the product and/or other forum members, 2 which were questions, and one was an attempt to provide a helpful answer to a members' question -
I look forward to his further contributions to the forum.
- Ozpeter
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icky
Location: USA
Posts: 11
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Posted - Sun Jun 29, 2003 9:16 pm
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Hoping that this argument is over - let me post what I hope to be the final addition to this thread to prove that we've come full cirle. :)
I came to this forum with barely an idea of what to buy having done a bit of research. There were many very helpful recommendations here that steered me in the right direction. To those of you who have offered your advice, I thank you.
My Echo Mia and Soundcraft Folio Notepad are on their way. I'm busy learning CEP in the meantime and saving up for decent monitors and a condenser mic.
Thanks again to all of you for your help!
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distech1
Posts: 12
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Posted - Mon Jun 30, 2003 6:34 am
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Icky,
Good luck with your new setup. I am one of many happy CEP users here, though I rarely post my own opinions. I do frequently read the posts here, however, and I have found them to be informative AND entertaining. I think you are headed in the right direction for a basic production system. I used to work in radio and I used to hot-cart stuff all the time! I bought a CEP license in 1998 for our station's first digital production room. We used to kneel in front of it every morning and pay homage to the software gods at Syntrillium - LOL. We thought we had the world! I've been away from that business for a while now, but they are still using that CEP system. Last year I bought my own copy of CEP. One of my favorite things about it is that it is not a "one button" solution. I like the fact that you can and/or must adjust so many parameters in the filters and equalizers. CEP allows the user to control the sound in ways some "one-click" applications do not. Sure, I wish CEP could do some things it currently can not. I wish CEP would support some types of plug-ins. I also wish it had real-time metering on the compressor (so I could see gain reduction and so forth). I even wish I could scrub with it but, even as it is, it is so powerful and stable (which, alone, is worth a fortune) I can hardly look too far elsewhere. I believe that, if everyone out there using CEP had actually paid for it, CEP would be even better RIGHT NOW for us all. Let's hope Adobe can infuse them with the cash they need to keep improving, and not mess up what is already so good. I have a very good friend who uses Pro-Tools in his own home. His projects can be opened and manipulated in the biggest, baddest production houses in the world, but he is STILL amazed at what I am doing with CEP. In fact, he sometimes sends me stuff so I can lay effects on it for him (he doesn't have many plug-ins).
Bottom line: The end product still has as much to do with creativity as it does the tools used.
I digress - I logged-in to encourage you and to suggest looking on E-bay for some nice open-box or even good used nearfield monitors. I bought a pair of Tannoy Reveals for $270 US (open box, but new) and am powering them with an older NAD amplifier (a Hi-Fi model with no gain controls or "loudness" curve). I am very happy with this setup. I did spend a little more on my mixer (I bought the Mackie 1202 VLZ), but if I had it to do again, I would strongly consider the Folio Notepad - it is an excellent piece for less $$$. I also am using the ECHO Mia audio board with Windows XP professional. I am very happy with the performance and value. I could not have done it this cheap any other way. With my system, I've been completeing many projects I started a long time ago. I also have been earning some nice cash on the side restoring old out-of-print vinyl and creating voice demo CDs for colleagues (with music beds, vocal FX, etc.). I am doing all this on a system that cost less than a really bad used car, and I could not have done so without Syntrillium.
Thanks, guys.
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Graeme
Member
Location: Spain
Posts: 4663
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Posted - Mon Jun 30, 2003 6:43 am
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icky wrote: |
Hoping that this argument is over - let me post what I hope to be the final addition to this thread to prove that we've come full cirle. ![Smile](../img/s/icon_smile.gif) |
I'm sorry it happened to be your thread which got hijacked in this way - but that's the nature of forum discussions.
You seem to have made, with or without any help from us, some sensible decisions for an entry level system and you are planning ahead well. I'm sure you will not be disappointed with the end result.
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icky
Location: USA
Posts: 11
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Posted - Mon Jun 30, 2003 4:00 pm
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distech1, thanks very much for your post. Your eBay suggestion is well received. I bought the mixer there and will certainly consider it as a good way to pick up some monitors too.
Your post helped to confirm everything I've already decided on as I'll be using the Mia with XP Pro too. It is good to know that you've had luck with a very similar system and have a similar radio background (including hot-carting!).
Graeme, I assure you much of the help did come from this forum. I may be new here but I have a great deal of experience with other forums and I know that the infighting is all part of the deal. Though this can get annoying, it is also that same sort of passion that keeps people interested and involved - not all bad.
I think the next logical question is...which one you should I send my voiceover demo tape to in a month so you can help make me rich!?
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Graeme
Member
Location: Spain
Posts: 4663
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Posted - Mon Jun 30, 2003 4:25 pm
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icky wrote: |
I think the next logical question is...which one you should I send my voiceover demo tape to in a month so you can help make me rich!? ![Smile](../img/s/icon_smile.gif) |
Sorry, can't help you there. These days, my interest is more directed towards what has been recorded than what will be.
I would have thought Bernie would have been of more use to you - if his signature line is anything to go by, he has the right sort of contacts for your line of business.
Let him prove his worth by helping you to promote yourself, that's what I say
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jonrose
Location: USA
Posts: 2901
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Posted - Wed Jul 02, 2003 1:21 am
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Bernie wrote: |
Quite finished? ![Big Grin](../img/s/icon_big.gif) |
Well, since you've now explained yourself in depth, I'd like to be, but...
Quote: |
Guns blazing? Might seem that way, yes, but I don't care about that. |
Ah, but most members here do care, though. ![Wink](../img/s/icon_wink.gif)
Quote: |
If I see a rude person, or an unhelpful person, or a show-off, or a pompous git, no matter where it is, I will go for them! |
Okay, then. One last bit of commentary:
If you are including me in this subset, I think our conversations have all ended before they've begun. I have done nothing but express goodwill and some genuine discussion toward some of your points. Read it again, and if you perceive any of that to be rude, unhelpful, show-offish, or pompous, then you've only read your own thoughts into my words. I think you'll find that I say what I mean, and mean what I say. If that doesn't work for you, then good day to you.
;)
Best... -Jon
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icky
Location: USA
Posts: 11
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Posted - Sat Jul 05, 2003 9:20 am
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Thanks to help from this forum, I now have all of the critical first pieces of my setup and I'm plugging everything in. This has raised a couple more questions...
First, I purchased 4 Monster cables to connect the inputs & outputs of the Mia to my Spirit Folio Notepad mixer. I have two 1/4 to 1/4 cables going from the analog outputs of the Mia to two of the mono channels on the mixer. I'm not hearing anything! I'm watching the Mia console on my PC to confirm I'm actually sending a signal. I've now realized that I bought cables with unbalanced connectors. Would this explain why I'm not getting any audio at all on the mixer? I would have expected unbalanced connectors to maybe not be as good but still provide some audio?
Secondly, I've been looking at possibly adding an Alesis 3630 or similar compressor to my setup so I can do a bit of compression on the way into the Mia (I'm always recording only my voice in this case). The specs of the 3630 are unbalanced from what I can tell. From what I've read, it seems that it would be better to use a compressor that supports balancd inputs and outputs but I think I'm not clearly understanding balanced vs. unbalanced in a real-life application. I've read up on this a ton but I'm still not totally clear on this.
Thanks in advance for any advice!
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SteveG
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 6695
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Posted - Sat Jul 05, 2003 5:59 pm
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icky wrote: |
First, I purchased 4 Monster cables to connect the inputs & outputs of the Mia to my Spirit Folio Notepad mixer. I have two 1/4 to 1/4 cables going from the analog outputs of the Mia to two of the mono channels on the mixer. I'm not hearing anything! I'm watching the Mia console on my PC to confirm I'm actually sending a signal. I've now realized that I bought cables with unbalanced connectors. Would this explain why I'm not getting any audio at all on the mixer? I would have expected unbalanced connectors to maybe not be as good but still provide some audio? |
Unless you are doing really long runs through interference-loaded places, you won't notice any quality difference at all, because there isn't any! If you use mono jacks into the Mia outputs, they will automatically unbalance, and this works fine. So if you can't hear anything, it's probably the way you've got the Folio set up. You can either do a modified version of this, or just use the RHS pair of phono (RCA) sockets (the tape deck return) which you can switch into the monitor output instead of the mixer output. This does at least have the advantage of preventing a feedback loop being set up, and will let you listen to playbacks through the monitors. You need a pair of mono jack to RCA leads to do this, and you have to remember to push the B-check button, or whatever they call it on the notepad - I can't remember offhand.
Quote: |
Secondly, I've been looking at possibly adding an Alesis 3630 or similar compressor to my setup so I can do a bit of compression on the way into the Mia (I'm always recording only my voice in this case). The specs of the 3630 are unbalanced from what I can tell. From what I've read, it seems that it would be better to use a compressor that supports balancd inputs and outputs but I think I'm not clearly understanding balanced vs. unbalanced in a real-life application. I've read up on this a ton but I'm still not totally clear on this. |
If you are recording yourself, then this is a bad idea... actually, it's a bad idea anyway. You shouldn't do any processing at all to a signal until you've recorded the cleanest version you can get. If you process anything on the way in, you lose the option to correct it later completely. And CEP's Dynamics Processing is way more flexible than a 3060 is, anyway, apart from the sidechain issue, which won't bother you in this sort of application. I can't see any point in buying an extra box which is both undesirable and unneccesary!
The balanced/unbalanced argument is quite irrelevant when you are only talking about a couple of feet of interconnects - see above. And it won't stop anything working. Because the runs are so short, it's quite normal for outboard units to be quite happy to work balanced or unbalanced. If you do a forum search, you will find several basic explanations of how balancing works, and what the benefits are in some situations. As far as you are concerned, the only thing that you need to run balanced is your condensor microphone, because of the phantom power situation - phantom powering only works with balanced connections.
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distech1
Posts: 12
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Posted - Mon Jul 07, 2003 6:12 am
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Keep in mind that the Mia software mixer (the ECHO Console3 Launcher) has TWO pages - one for the analog, the other for the digital. The same "virtual" outputs from the audio board appear on both pages. You may be dialing up your output on the digital page, which would cause your output to come only from the S/PDIF jack. Make sure your are manipulating the controls on the ANALOG page. You toggle betweeen the analog and digital pages with the two buttons on the far right of the mixer window (labeled "A 1-2" and "D 1-2").
As far as the balanced/unbalanced issue goes, I agree that there is no difference in quality, just the ability to reject outside noise. This is irrelevent with short cable runs, although with a lot of gear the balanced outputs also deliver a higher signal level (+4) as opposed to the more common output from "consumer" gear (-10). In that case, I believe there IS some advantage to using balanced interconnects becasue the signal-to-noise ratio will be better. The difference in signal level is not inherent to balanced or unbalanced circuits, however, and the Mia is capable of delivering +4 into either type of load. I would suggest using +4 if the inputs on the Notepad are set up to handle that (they are, I am sure). Also use the +4 outputs of the Notepad to feed your Mia inputs.
It is a neat feature of 1/4" connections that they will automatically un-balance if a two-circuit plug is inserted into a balanced jack (or vice-versa). I still get nervous about doing this because, in many broadcast consoles (like most of the ones I used in my younger days) the outputs were designed to drive 600 Ohm lines and had to deliver a considerable amount of current (most of them also had +8 output levels). With that type of gear, simply tying the ring to the sleeve (which is what happens when you insert an un-balanced 1/4" connector into a balanced jack) would almost immediately let the smoke out of the little OP amp chips in the output section. Old habits die hard. This is why I ususally wire my balanced output-to-unbalanced input conections using the tip and the sleeve (shield) ONLY. I leave the ring wire open. This makes the cable "directional", as this wiring scheme will not work when going from an un-balanced output to a balanced input (where the ring MUST be tied to the sleeve). Transformer outputs and inputs change the rules again, but transformers are not used very much any more. Today, probably every piece of pro audio gear is set up to drive 10,000 Ohm inputs. Since output current is negligible in this case, the circuit designers can place a current-limiting resistor in series with the output amp. This means that shorting the ring to ground has no ill effect at all becasue it is impossible to actually short the output amp.
Finally, in my opinion, you should save your money and NOT buy the Alesis compressor. To me it doesn't sound very good and the compressor in CEP can be tweaked to sound quite nice. Put that money towards monitors or a good microphone. Don't worry about processing on the way in to keep you out of the "red" when you record. With the gear you've purchased the noise floor will be low enough to turn your inputs down and record with your peaks hitting -6 or so. Then, you can normalize after the fact. Remember, there is no tape hiss to worry about.
Sorry about the long post - Steve might have more to add on the wiring topic, however. Good luck!
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SteveG
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 6695
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Posted - Mon Jul 07, 2003 8:24 am
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In the Mia's manual, it says that it's okay to unbalance the inputs or outputs with a mono jack. I don't know if they've used it, but there is a circuit configuration that allows a transformerless output to behave as though there was a 'virtual' transformer there - so that if you short the sleeve to ground whilst using the tip output, you get an increase in level from the tip. It's not strictly like an isolated transformer though, because you still get outputs (inverted) from both tip and ring when you don't do this - which really shouldn't happen!
I only use the Mia with an unbalanced output, so I'm not sure what it actually does under these circumstances. But I hope they.ve put some sort of output protection on the op-amps, because I've been running the output with one leg shorted for quite a while now!
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