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icky · Location: USA

Hi all,

Some great stuff in this forum - I've learned a lot just from reading. Now I'm ready to ask a question!

I'm putting together a PC that I'll use only for recording voice and sometimes adding some audio background. I'm not a musician and have no need for MIDI or a ton of inputs. I simply need to be able to feed the PC with a decent mic (EV RE20 or similar) and a CD player. Also, I don't need multitrack features - I'm fine with just 2 tracks.

I have the computer ready to go (2GHz P4, 1GB RAM, plenty of reasonably fast disk) and I have the mics and headphones. I intend to use Cool Edit Pro for software.

The hardware is of course the big issue - what to buy? I initially looked at something like M-Audio's Duo which looks good because they have a strong reputation for their mic preamps but I'd prefer not to deal with USB. I do have Firewire on the PC so that would be an option too.

Echo's Mia seems to get a lot of support here but I need something with XLR inputs for the mic. I could get a small mixer to place between the inputs and whatever card/device I buy, but I would prefer not to do that.

Any suggestions for a card/box that can accept both my mic and a CD player?

Thanks in advance.

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

icky · Location: USA

Thanks for your comments, SteveG. I do see your point about not putting the mic preamp in the PC case.

So lets say you've convinced me that the mixer is the solution. I certainly do see the value in that - gives me a ton of options I won't have without it.

As for the budget, I initially thought I could get away with buying only the M-Audio Duo as I mentioned so I was starting with a budget in the US $250 range. Lets assume I'll get Echo's Mia which I see listed for around $150. I initially wouldn't have expected to get a mixer for $100 but I'm seeing a couple options that look good:
-Behringer EuroRack MX602A - $75
-Alesis MultiMix 6FX 4-channel - $99

I've heard good things about Behringer but I've never owned one - if you have any recommendations for a small mixer for less than $150, I'm all ears.

Of course, now that I'm looking at a mixer I'm starting to think about an amp and some decent monitors...I guess that stuff can come later when I'm ready to spend more.

By the way, looking up the price for the Mia brought up another question. I see the Mia for as cheap as $150 but another version of the Mia with extra MIDI stuff for around $200. Does the $200 version only add MIDI capabilities? Anything else in there a non-MIDI guy might want?

Thanks very much for your response - I think you've already got me steered in the right direction.

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

The Mia without MIDI is an absolute steal at the moment - MIDI is the only thing they've added.

You can buy a Deadringer if you want, but if you are after something small that will do what you want and comes from a reputable company, then I'd check out the Soundcraft Spirit Folio Notepad, which you should be able to pick up easily within your price range. At least this mixer has its own pedigree, and a long and honourable one at that. And they are nice little mixers - my business partner has one, and she thinks it's great! It will mix up to 4 mics, and your music sources, and has phantom power. And it will work fine with the Mia.

The Alesis has effects you don't need, and to keep the price down, there are rather less other facilities as well. But I think I'd even still rather have one of these than the Deadringer.

zemlin · Location: USA

icky · Location: USA

The Notepad looks like a good choice. The features are virtually identical to the Behringer. It is just slightly more - likely worth it for a more reputable company. Thanks again!

Bobbsy · Location: United Kingdom

On the theory that there is strength in numbers, may I put in another vote that the addition of a mixer is a very worthwhile option for your application...and that the Soundcraft Spirit Folio notepad is a good choice. I installed a couple of these in installations I put together for clients and they've been very happy with them

Newer Behringers aren't THAT bad and represent okay value for money, but I still prefer the Soundcraft pedigree.

One thing I'd like to comment on: you say that you don't need multitrack for also mention you want a V/O mic and CD facility. Assuming you wish to mix together music and voice (and apologies if I'm wrong) are you sure you wish to limit yourself to balancing these sources on the fly? I'd guess that the multitrack (Studio) option for CE2K would be good for you.

Also, you WILL need decent monitoring--I find voice can be harder to get right than music!--and you WILL need to think about the acoustics (both isolation and deadening) of your recording space.

Bob

icky · Location: USA

Thanks for your comments, Bob. You guys have convinced me to go the mixer route and the Notepad looks perfect.

Your point about multitrack is good too. I do intend to get Cool Edit Pro so I can do some multitrack stuff.

Given my limited budget, my monitoring solution will be limited to my not so bad home stereo for now which isn't at all right for this application but will have to suffice for a while. Nearfield monitors are on the wishlist and I hope it won't take too long to add them.

I have a bit of experience creating an adequate acoustic environment without spending a ton of money so I'll have a lot of experimentation to do there to put together a setup that sounds ok without buying an isolation booth for the living room. :)

Thanks again.

icky · Location: USA

I have another question for you guys about this configuration (Mia, Folio Notepad, mic connected to mixer). As my intention is to record mostly my own voice and I'll want to use some of the effects from CEP, I'm wondering about monitoring.

With this setup, I'm hoping that I can feed the mic to the Mia via the mixer and monitor my voice with the CEP-applied affects via the outputs from the Mia feeding back to the Folio Notepad & headphones in real time. Is that a reasonable thing to hope for? I'm pretty sure the mixer can handle this but I'm not sure the software/Mix combo does. Comments, suggestions?

Graeme · Member Location: Spain

icky · Location: USA

Shucks. I thought maybe the mixer or the Mia was going to be the limitation here. I didn't think about the software.

Basically I'm just a former radio DJ who is trying to put together a really basic system to do some demo tapes and possibly some not-too-professional voiceover work. I'm very much used to working in a studio where I have an effects box of some sort that I can noodle with while I talk into the mic to get the sound I want before recording. I'm not totally opposed to recording dry tracks of my voice and then doing the noodling but it is a different process and sort of changes my creative approach. Not necessarily a bad thing but different than I was expecting.

Maybe it is taboo to ask such a question here since Syntrillium has been so kind to provide such a great venue for us but are there are other software packages in the same price range with the same hardware that would allow me to take the outputs of the Mia back into the mixer so I could monitor the audio that is being recorded in real time? Or am I opening up a whole new can of worms by wanting that?

Graeme · Member Location: Spain

Some audio/soundcards have on-board FX processing. This might be one route you could consider taking. With the exception of a couple of really high priced units, I suspect that installing one of the others would actually result in a lower quality basic signal, not really such a bright idea.

Hardware FX units are not that expensive - certainly not for the sort of thing you are talking about - and there's plenty of choice. My inclination would be to purchase one of these and use it with your mixer, much in the way you have become used to.

Craig Jackman · Location: Canada

It depends mostly on what type of voice performer you are. If you absolutely have to have the "feel" in your headphones, well you either have to shell out for hardware compressors and/or eq, or find another kind of software that lets you monitor and record with effects. If you can perform just hearing your mic in your headphones you can do this many ways.

... as an aside, if you are just doing straight voice do you even need headphones? I do most of my voice work phone-less.

Assuming you REALLY want to use CEP (this is the CE/CEP forum after all ... and good choice BTW), just record your takes into the computer. This offers up all the built in effects to play with, and they really are quite good. You also get more opportunity to play with eq, compression, limiting, and reverb to get exactly the right feel and tone. Then again, this was my approach even in analog days ... record totally dry, add eq and comression when coming back off tape in a mixdown.

Lastly, the future is digital, and you are seeing more new and exciting things coming out as plug-ins rather than as hardware boxes.

icky · Location: USA

Thanks for the comments, guys. I am considering adding a hardware FX box of some sort but I think I will hold off until I get everything set up and see how recording dry works for me. I'm sure I can get used to the difference but if I can't, I'm sure there are some great deals waiting for me on eBay. :)

Your point about headphones is valid, Craig. Again, it is just a matter of getting used to something new - which I'm all for. My radio experience was often more about absolute speed. I worked for a small station with tons of commercials and the production load was massive. I learned to do single-take 30 second spots direct to cart including firing off music and FX while doing the voiceover. While I'm not proud of any of that work today - you do what you have to do. This scenario is much different of course and my standards for production quality are much higher. Progress!

I'm certainly more excited about investing in FX plugins for CE than investing in hardware.

Thanks again - its time for me to start ordering some gear!

Bernie · Posted - Fri Jun 27, 2003 9:08 am

I agree with icky on the need for genuine 'real time' monitoring in Cool Edit Pro. Perhaps this is something Adobe will do when they get hold of it, all their products are in the pro range of software, and if Cool Edit is going to be in the pro range it will need to have 'real time' monitoring to compete with the likes of stineburg et al. It will also need to use VSTs etc. etc. All these things will have to happen. It's just a matter of when.

Craig Jackman · Location: Canada

I resent that. CEP is already in the "pro ranks". It's used in thousands of radio stations world wide. It's used in a smaller number of recording studios world wide. CEP is as pro as you want it to be, after all you're the one flying the plane! It's a great piece of software, packed with features and attractively priced. Is it perfect? No, show me something that is, feature for feature and dollar for dollar. Does it need VST? I don't think so, I've found everything I need included, though there are some RTAS compressors I'd like to playwith. That being said, they should take a look as better support of VST wrappers for those users that need it. Does it need real time effects support on record. Again, I don't think so. If you absolutely must have it, perhaps you should look at other software.

CEP was never about being the perfect software. It's about being amazing value. It's about doing things that are, well, cool for lack of a better word. It doesn't do MIDI ... and I'd venture that there's a lot more users wanting MIDI than real time effects in record or VST or DXi support.

Bernie · Posted - Fri Jun 27, 2003 12:52 pm

I follow you, I do understand your resentment, but it's time to face facts. I have been using CEP for a couple of years myself and I love it too, but it's not Pro class yet, no way in hell. No VST and no real-time ~ no serious musician uses CEP, sorry. The things you think it needs and doesn't need are your opinion and, frankly reflect a narrow view of the entire recording industry, only a small part of which is the radio industry. "I've found everything I need"?, well you haven't found very much, it reflects a lot of naiivete, there is a whole universe of VST instruments, software and effects to discover. Anyway, we shall have to wait and see what happens to the program. I just cannot see CEP remaining as it is once Adobe relaunches it. They don't yet have a flagship audio product, and this will be the one for them. If Cool Edit is going to be the Premier or Photoshop of the professional audio software market, it will have to see Cubase, Cakewalk and E-Magic head-on. It won't be able to that if it doesn't have the above neccessary to compete in the Pro audio market. The only other way, would be if Adobe went for the DJ/mixing software market, by just adding tools to do BPM mixing. That is also a growing area in audio software. But I just can't see adobe doing that, it's too limited. They could concievably incorporate it into something like Premier, but that would be a waste. Actually it would be nice if someone gave us a little clue as to Adobe's plans for Cool Edit.

Forgot to add: Adobe are not a "value-for-money" company, Photoshop costs $600, not �120:D. Adobe is a high class, professional outfit serving professional film-makers, video and TV production companies, graphic designers, thousands of newspapers, magazines and Print houses. What kind of audio product could Adobe make, and who would they aim it at? think about it.

Emmett · Location: USA

Bernie · Posted - Fri Jun 27, 2003 1:22 pm

oops I crashed the news .. sorry Wink

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

jonrose · Location: USA

icky · Location: USA

This thread certainly has been quite a ride! While you guys have been arguing up there I bought a Soundcraft Spirit Folio notepad and dusted off an old SM58 (still working on the right mic, thanks for your comments Emmett - the RE20 was a favorite from my radio days but I'm looking for more appropriate alternatives for my home studio) and now I'm looking for that $99 Mia that everyone talks about but seems to be $150 everywhere I look. I'm very close - and your comments have been extremely helpful. Thanks.

post78 · Location: USA

ozpeter · Location: Australia

Bernie · Posted - Sun Jun 29, 2003 12:40 pm

Quite finished? :D

I know that I am making more sense and expressing more truths than the little group of friends in here would have everyone else believe. From the length of some of the replies in here, it's obvious a lot of you are just a bunch of old women, and very bored too.

Here's the axe I have to grind:
Guns blazing? Might seem that way, yes, but I don't care about that. If I see a rude person, or an unhelpful person, or a show-off, or a pompous git, no matter where it is, I will go for them!

When I first came here a few days ago, I did what everyone does, I spent a couple of hours reading back threads. I could not believe the rudeness and how short some people could be, and to people who seemed like newbies and who were desperate for help. I've seen this shock and awe tactic in other forums, usually perpetrated by members who have thousands of posts. It's the 'aggressive sell' tactic as used by American media, that tries to tell you that you are an idiot if you don't buy this product or watch that TV program. It's designed to scare newbies into instant respect. Hell, I can't believe some members in here actually tell people off, for not doing this, not checking that! Have a bit of compassion for less experienced people will you. Give people a chance. Nobody is interested whether you've had to deal with idiots in the past, or with the same questions. If you can't help someone, why enter the thread just to throw your weight around and humiliate a newbie? Is that why you come here every day? Is that how you get your kicks? How sad. When I offer to help someone, I find links to threads, find URLs to manufacturers etc. and I help. I don't say, do a search, or some give some vague non-comital opinion and then massage my own ego by writing reems about how much I know about the subject, then insult them for not providing enough information, and to top it off give no real help. Can't be bothered to help properly? Why reply to people?

kylen · Posted - Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:38 pm

Graeme · Member Location: Spain

post78 · Location: USA

VoodooRadio · Location: USA

Man O Man, I will just be glad when the bell rings and the majority of these problems are sitting behind some Middle School desk. Shy

ozpeter · Location: Australia

I note that Bernie has made 15 posts here so far, including 7 which were concerned with general criticisms of the product and/or other forum members, 2 which were questions, and one was an attempt to provide a helpful answer to a members' question -

icky · Location: USA

Hoping that this argument is over - let me post what I hope to be the final addition to this thread to prove that we've come full cirle. :)

I came to this forum with barely an idea of what to buy having done a bit of research. There were many very helpful recommendations here that steered me in the right direction. To those of you who have offered your advice, I thank you.

My Echo Mia and Soundcraft Folio Notepad are on their way. I'm busy learning CEP in the meantime and saving up for decent monitors and a condenser mic.

Thanks again to all of you for your help!

distech1 · Posted - Mon Jun 30, 2003 6:34 am

Icky,

Good luck with your new setup. I am one of many happy CEP users here, though I rarely post my own opinions. I do frequently read the posts here, however, and I have found them to be informative AND entertaining. I think you are headed in the right direction for a basic production system. I used to work in radio and I used to hot-cart stuff all the time! I bought a CEP license in 1998 for our station's first digital production room. We used to kneel in front of it every morning and pay homage to the software gods at Syntrillium - LOL. We thought we had the world! I've been away from that business for a while now, but they are still using that CEP system. Last year I bought my own copy of CEP. One of my favorite things about it is that it is not a "one button" solution. I like the fact that you can and/or must adjust so many parameters in the filters and equalizers. CEP allows the user to control the sound in ways some "one-click" applications do not. Sure, I wish CEP could do some things it currently can not. I wish CEP would support some types of plug-ins. I also wish it had real-time metering on the compressor (so I could see gain reduction and so forth). I even wish I could scrub with it but, even as it is, it is so powerful and stable (which, alone, is worth a fortune) I can hardly look too far elsewhere. I believe that, if everyone out there using CEP had actually paid for it, CEP would be even better RIGHT NOW for us all. Let's hope Adobe can infuse them with the cash they need to keep improving, and not mess up what is already so good. I have a very good friend who uses Pro-Tools in his own home. His projects can be opened and manipulated in the biggest, baddest production houses in the world, but he is STILL amazed at what I am doing with CEP. In fact, he sometimes sends me stuff so I can lay effects on it for him (he doesn't have many plug-ins).

Bottom line: The end product still has as much to do with creativity as it does the tools used.

I digress - I logged-in to encourage you and to suggest looking on E-bay for some nice open-box or even good used nearfield monitors. I bought a pair of Tannoy Reveals for $270 US (open box, but new) and am powering them with an older NAD amplifier (a Hi-Fi model with no gain controls or "loudness" curve). I am very happy with this setup. I did spend a little more on my mixer (I bought the Mackie 1202 VLZ), but if I had it to do again, I would strongly consider the Folio Notepad - it is an excellent piece for less $$$. I also am using the ECHO Mia audio board with Windows XP professional. I am very happy with the performance and value. I could not have done it this cheap any other way. With my system, I've been completeing many projects I started a long time ago. I also have been earning some nice cash on the side restoring old out-of-print vinyl and creating voice demo CDs for colleagues (with music beds, vocal FX, etc.). I am doing all this on a system that cost less than a really bad used car, and I could not have done so without Syntrillium.

Thanks, guys.

Graeme · Member Location: Spain

icky · Location: USA

distech1, thanks very much for your post. Your eBay suggestion is well received. I bought the mixer there and will certainly consider it as a good way to pick up some monitors too.

Your post helped to confirm everything I've already decided on as I'll be using the Mia with XP Pro too. It is good to know that you've had luck with a very similar system and have a similar radio background (including hot-carting!).

Graeme, I assure you much of the help did come from this forum. I may be new here but I have a great deal of experience with other forums and I know that the infighting is all part of the deal. Though this can get annoying, it is also that same sort of passion that keeps people interested and involved - not all bad.

I think the next logical question is...which one you should I send my voiceover demo tape to in a month so you can help make me rich!? Smile

Graeme · Member Location: Spain

jonrose · Location: USA

icky · Location: USA

Thanks to help from this forum, I now have all of the critical first pieces of my setup and I'm plugging everything in. This has raised a couple more questions...

First, I purchased 4 Monster cables to connect the inputs & outputs of the Mia to my Spirit Folio Notepad mixer. I have two 1/4 to 1/4 cables going from the analog outputs of the Mia to two of the mono channels on the mixer. I'm not hearing anything! Smile

I'm watching the Mia console on my PC to confirm I'm actually sending a signal. I've now realized that I bought cables with unbalanced connectors. Would this explain why I'm not getting any audio at all on the mixer? I would have expected unbalanced connectors to maybe not be as good but still provide some audio?

Secondly, I've been looking at possibly adding an Alesis 3630 or similar compressor to my setup so I can do a bit of compression on the way into the Mia (I'm always recording only my voice in this case). The specs of the 3630 are unbalanced from what I can tell. From what I've read, it seems that it would be better to use a compressor that supports balancd inputs and outputs but I think I'm not clearly understanding balanced vs. unbalanced in a real-life application. I've read up on this a ton but I'm still not totally clear on this.

Thanks in advance for any advice!

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

distech1 · Posted - Mon Jul 07, 2003 6:12 am

Keep in mind that the Mia software mixer (the ECHO Console3 Launcher) has TWO pages - one for the analog, the other for the digital. The same "virtual" outputs from the audio board appear on both pages. You may be dialing up your output on the digital page, which would cause your output to come only from the S/PDIF jack. Make sure your are manipulating the controls on the ANALOG page. You toggle betweeen the analog and digital pages with the two buttons on the far right of the mixer window (labeled "A 1-2" and "D 1-2").

As far as the balanced/unbalanced issue goes, I agree that there is no difference in quality, just the ability to reject outside noise. This is irrelevent with short cable runs, although with a lot of gear the balanced outputs also deliver a higher signal level (+4) as opposed to the more common output from "consumer" gear (-10). In that case, I believe there IS some advantage to using balanced interconnects becasue the signal-to-noise ratio will be better. The difference in signal level is not inherent to balanced or unbalanced circuits, however, and the Mia is capable of delivering +4 into either type of load. I would suggest using +4 if the inputs on the Notepad are set up to handle that (they are, I am sure). Also use the +4 outputs of the Notepad to feed your Mia inputs.

It is a neat feature of 1/4" connections that they will automatically un-balance if a two-circuit plug is inserted into a balanced jack (or vice-versa). I still get nervous about doing this because, in many broadcast consoles (like most of the ones I used in my younger days) the outputs were designed to drive 600 Ohm lines and had to deliver a considerable amount of current (most of them also had +8 output levels). With that type of gear, simply tying the ring to the sleeve (which is what happens when you insert an un-balanced 1/4" connector into a balanced jack) would almost immediately let the smoke out of the little OP amp chips in the output section. Old habits die hard. This is why I ususally wire my balanced output-to-unbalanced input conections using the tip and the sleeve (shield) ONLY. I leave the ring wire open. This makes the cable "directional", as this wiring scheme will not work when going from an un-balanced output to a balanced input (where the ring MUST be tied to the sleeve). Transformer outputs and inputs change the rules again, but transformers are not used very much any more. Today, probably every piece of pro audio gear is set up to drive 10,000 Ohm inputs. Since output current is negligible in this case, the circuit designers can place a current-limiting resistor in series with the output amp. This means that shorting the ring to ground has no ill effect at all becasue it is impossible to actually short the output amp.

Finally, in my opinion, you should save your money and NOT buy the Alesis compressor. To me it doesn't sound very good and the compressor in CEP can be tweaked to sound quite nice. Put that money towards monitors or a good microphone. Don't worry about processing on the way in to keep you out of the "red" when you record. With the gear you've purchased the noise floor will be low enough to turn your inputs down and record with your peaks hitting -6 or so. Then, you can normalize after the fact. Remember, there is no tape hiss to worry about.

Sorry about the long post - Steve might have more to add on the wiring topic, however. Good luck!

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

In the Mia's manual, it says that it's okay to unbalance the inputs or outputs with a mono jack. I don't know if they've used it, but there is a circuit configuration that allows a transformerless output to behave as though there was a 'virtual' transformer there - so that if you short the sleeve to ground whilst using the tip output, you get an increase in level from the tip. It's not strictly like an isolated transformer though, because you still get outputs (inverted) from both tip and ring when you don't do this - which really shouldn't happen!

I only use the Mia with an unbalanced output, so I'm not sure what it actually does under these circumstances. But I hope they.ve put some sort of output protection on the op-amps, because I've been running the output with one leg shorted for quite a while now!