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lagouyn
Posts: 10
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 Posted - Mon Jun 02, 2003 8:14 am
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Hi,
Could someone summarize these two cards for me? Some questions:
-Works with WinXP?
-Can co-reside with another sound card, like an SBLive?
-Inputs/Outputs
-What kind of cable do I need (I'll be connecting to the Tape Out on my receiver, for some workflows)?
-Price, software bundle, best place(s) to buy?
-Minimum system requirement (I have a PIII 500MHz box)
...and generally, which of these would be the preferred card for an LP->Computer->CD workflow?
(Are there other cards I should consider, too?)
Regards,
Allan
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SteveG
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 6695
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Posted - Mon Jun 02, 2003 12:51 pm
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They should both work fine with XP. Whether XP works fine is another matter - I won't start on about that again!
Certainly a Mia can reside quite happily with a SB Live! card, and I would think that the 2496 should as well.
Inputs/outputs: This is the big difference. The 2496 has phono/RCA connectors on the back panel and only functions at domestic levels, which is actually what you want. The Mia, OTOH has balanced 1/4" jack inputs and outputs that can run at domestic and professional (higher) levels. Neither card has an input level control - you don't get them on high quality audio cards - so you have to make sure that the correct signal level gets to the input. With hot signals, this is slightly easier to control with the Mia, because you can reset the input sensitivity to +4dBu instead of -10dBv, and adjust the level later in CEP. You don't really lose any significant resolution, because if you record in 24-bit, a few dB below peak level is nowhere in it! There is also a breakout connector with the 2496, which the Mia doesn't have.
With the 2496, you've probably already got the correct cables. With the Mia, you'd need to get some RCA-1/4" jack cables - an ordinary 1/4" mono jack will automatically unbalance the input, which is what you'd want.
Software bundle? Whatever is shipped with them! The Mia used to come with CEP SE, but it doesn't any more, and I have no idea what comes with a 2496.
They will both run fine with a 500Mhz P3.
Other stuff: the sound quality will be very similar - this won't be a choice issue at all.
Support? Not a problem with either manufacturer as far as I know. We're not exactly talking Creative Labs here either. They have no concept of support.
You're in the US - somebody else will have to tell you where the best place to buy either one is!
Yes, if you want to make your life difficult, you can start to consider other cards. The only one that springs immediately to mind is the DMX 6fire 24/96, which comes with a nice breakout box that goes on your front panel. Most people seem to get on fine with them - even my nephew, who is capable of wrecking anything!
It must be pretty obvious that I have a Mia... but I wouldn't dismiss the Audiophile at all for your particular needs.
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djwayne
Location: USA
Posts: 583
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Posted - Mon Jun 02, 2003 1:05 pm
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Each case is different, based on different hardware and computer set ups. I have an 2496 and it works great by itself, with a SB Live card, I experienced problems one day, with the Revolution 7.1 card I experienced problems one day, last night the 2496 and 7.1 worked together with no problems--- Go figure. Even though they may seem to conflit with each other one day, another day no problem, who knows what'll happen on your system. Try it and see.
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Rando
Location: Canada
Posts: 52
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Posted - Mon Jun 02, 2003 1:28 pm
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I have a MIA and S/B Live living together in harmony. If you go the MIA route, be sure to find out which chipset and processor is in your computer. If it's VIA chipset in combo with an Intel Processor, you could, (but not necessarily), be in for trouble.
Until I built my new machine last month, I was running an HP Pavillion with Windows Me and the VIA/Intel Combo. The WDM drivers would not work in CEP that well, recording would halt after 3 seconds or so. When I stuck to the Vxd/MME drivers, everything worked fine, but there is an extreme latency issue with Vxd drivers enabled.
Now that I'm running XP with and Intel 845 chipset and Intel Pentium IV processor, everything works perfectly. In XP you don't have a choice of either Vxd or WDM. It's WDM or nothing! The latency issue becomes all but redundant.
If you consider the MIA, go to Echo's site at www.echoaudio.com and see the warnings about VIA/Intel combos. Good Luck 
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SteveG
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 6695
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Posted - Mon Jun 02, 2003 4:29 pm
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Good point about the chipsets - I completely forgot that one, because I'm running the Mia with an AMD and an approved Via chipset, and it's always been like that. Although this may change soon...
Specifically the Echo warning says that Intel processors with non-Intel chipsets are not supported - but it doesn't say they won't work. You are sort-of on your own, though...
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oldman
Posts: 86
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Posted - Mon Jun 02, 2003 9:40 pm
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HI It guess it also depends on whether you're using CE2k or CE 2.1. The Audiophile 2496 won't play back at 24 bits using CE2k and Windows XP because as noted XP uses WDM and CE2k need MME for 24bit support. No problem with CE 2.1 and XP. For more info check out '24-bit audio playback'
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Polaris
Posts: 9
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Posted - Tue Jun 03, 2003 4:18 am
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I am running Windows 2000 Pro, along with an Echo Mia on an AMD 1800+/Via KT133a setup, and it works like a charm.
I highly recommend Echo, they have good support, and they are quite specific as to what they think will work, and what won't, which I like.
FWIW, tomorrow I will be testing the new Tascam US122 with both a Via KT333 based machine, as well as an Intel 830m based notebook.
I will start a new thread to post my findings.
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lagouyn
Posts: 10
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Posted - Tue Jun 03, 2003 11:51 am
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Hi,
I'm using CE2K and WinXP. Will the Echo Mia play back at 24 bits on this system? It sounds like the Audiophile won't.
Is this correct?
-Allan
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Rando
Location: Canada
Posts: 52
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Posted - Wed Jun 04, 2003 4:24 pm
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It all depends again on your chipset/processor combo. AMD Processors/VIA KT133 etc should work but INTEL/VIA is another question. It isn't necessarily the operating system and MIA, it's the chipset and processor you have on your motherboard.
In dealing exclusively with MIA, go to their site at www.echoaudio.com and read their troubleshooting/support section in regards to what will run and what will not run for the MIA:kiss:
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Polaris
Posts: 9
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Posted - Wed Jun 04, 2003 4:37 pm
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The Echo Mia will work fine with AMD/Via combos, but if you plan to use an Intel processor, only use an Intel chipset. Echo says Intel/Via combos will not work properly.
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gglockner
Posts: 3
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Posted - Thu Jun 05, 2003 12:25 pm
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| oldman wrote: |
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The Audiophile 2496 won't play back at 24 bits using CE2k and Windows XP because as noted XP uses WDM and CE2k need MME for 24bit support. No problem with CE 2.1 and XP. For more info check out '24-bit audio playback'
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Has anyone been able to get the Audiphile 2496 playing 24-bit in CE2K in WinXP using the latest beta drivers from M-Audio? Last night, I tried both 5.10.00.31 and 5.10.00.29x12 with no luck in getting CE2K to play 24-bit audio. Worse, when recording, these beta drivers would cause some strange problem where CE2K would insert gaps of strange noise between sample sections. Sorry for the newbie question here.
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oldman
Posts: 86
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Posted - Sun Jun 08, 2003 10:02 pm
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| Quote: |
| Has anyone been able to get the Audiphile 2496 playing 24-bit in CE2K in WinXP using the latest beta drivers from M-Audio? Last night, I tried both 5.10.00.31 and 5.10.00.29x12 with no luck in getting CE2K to play 24-bit audio. Worse, when recording, these beta drivers would cause some strange problem where CE2K would insert gaps of strange noise between sample sections. Sorry for the newbie question here. |
I don't think that you are going to get there that way. I tried 5.10.00.31 without any luck. I also contacted both M-Audio and Syntrillium support and they both told me to get CE 2.1. After I finally broke down and bought it I never looked back. CE 2.1 is really a superior product.
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gglockner
Posts: 3
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Posted - Sun Jun 08, 2003 10:13 pm
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Unfortunately, I now have a negative impression from buying CE2K. After reading the forum, I now understand that CE2K is not merely a light version of CEP, but it is really a light version of an old release of CEP. Since this is a one-time project for me to clean up the sound from old cassette recordings of my past performances, I cannot justify the cost of CEP.
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AndyH
Posts: 1425
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Posted - Mon Jun 09, 2003 1:00 am
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CE2K is not deficient for audio cleanup. CEP has many additional and advanced features, but few of them are relevant to putting cassettes to CDR; they are much more oriented to recording and preparing multi-track. There probably are a few features, such as new filters, that might be useful in very special circumstances, once you learned to use them well enough, but for a "one time project" you would have to get into learning relatively advanced audio processing to make use of them, unless you are already well experienced with other audio processing products.
The recording and playback in WinXP is another matter. Lack of playback at 24 bit probably won't impede cassette cleanup, but you must be able to make good recordings. However, while it isn't ideal, if you can record at 16 bit, then convert to 32 bit for processing, you probably are not really going to be able to tell much difference, considering the source (cassette).
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SteveG
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 6695
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Posted - Mon Jun 09, 2003 2:08 am
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| gglockner wrote: |
| Unfortunately, I now have a negative impression from buying CE2K. After reading the forum, I now understand that CE2K is not merely a light version of CEP, but it is really a light version of an old release of CEP. Since this is a one-time project for me to clean up the sound from old cassette recordings of my past performances, I cannot justify the cost of CEP. |
Your understanding is essentially correct, but you are reprocessing stuff from cassettes, for heaven's sake! Even 16-bit CE2000 though an Audiophile 2496 is going to sound way better than a cassette! If you digitise the cassettes as 16-bit files (keeping an eye on the record levels), convert to 32-bit for internal processing, and as a final stage, convert back to 16-bit for writing to a CD, they will be fine, and very likely as good as you'll ever get them.
I know that it's very easy to get carried away with 'specmanship' - but ultimately, it's a good idea to at least try to keep your feet on the ground...
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gglockner
Posts: 3
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Posted - Tue Jun 10, 2003 9:01 am
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This begs the question that CE2K and the M-Audio drivers are incompatible with 24-bit playback. Besides, if 16-bit audio is sufficient, then why bother buying a pro-audio card when the on-board audio would be "good enough".
This reminds me of a violin dealer I visited in 1986. I commented that their $50,000 violin had a terrible wolf (false tones) on the D-string, and they replied that a famous local violinist determined the violin was acceptable for student use!
Practically speaking, I am concerned that CE2K transforms like the noise reduction filter can alter the sound and introduce strange artifacts. It would be best to hear the wave at the higher 24-bit resolution before any downsampling to CD.
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SteveG
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 6695
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Posted - Tue Jun 10, 2003 9:58 am
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| gglockner wrote: |
| This begs the question that CE2K and the M-Audio drivers are incompatible with 24-bit playback. Besides, if 16-bit audio is sufficient, then why bother buying a pro-audio card when the on-board audio would be "good enough". |
For the same reason that you don't buy a Rolls-Royce and run it flat out everywhere. If (God help you!) you take the Roller shopping, then you use some of its other facilities...
And the artefacts that you will hear when processing NR won't sound any different if you replay in 24-bit. Your ears can't actually cope with the whole of the 16-bit range, for heaven's sake! If you blast your ears with 0dB signals, and then try to listen to the silence between tracks, you won't hear it, because the compression mechanism in your ears will drop it below audibility. The only time you can hear this, (and only just) will be if you were sitting in silence, and had the level turned up sufficiently. And the next bit of 0dB signal would a) take the cones out of your speakers, and b) raise the hearing threshold sufficiently for you not to be able to hear the silence at the same volume setting for a while.
You have to keep a sense of perspective about these things. Human hearing has a dynamic range of about 100dB, but it is adaptive - you can't use it all at once. Give or take, if you have no hearing damage, you might manage about 80dB of real dynamic range at about 2kHz. On a good day. When you're not tired. With the wind behind you...
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AndyH
Posts: 1425
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Posted - Tue Jun 10, 2003 1:04 pm
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I understand wanting to get the best performance, but sometimes "good enough" is actually good enough. This isn't any different from SteveG's information, but perhaps a different expression of the facts will make an impression. If you sample cassettes, and record at a high enough level so that the peaks are not more than a few dB down from 0dBfs, all your information will be in the upper 12 to 14dBs (my estimate; you can argue about the details). It doesn't really matter how deep below that your card goes, there will be nothing there but noise. Processing at 32 bit is still recommended for the reasons that have been discussed many times.
You could actually achieve 24 bit recordings by using another program for recording, then process the results in CE2k. n-Track Studio is the lease expensive way I know to utilize the ASIO drivers.
I don't have CEP, so I have to depend on what I've read in the forum. My impression is that the only change in the audio clean-up area is an additional wrinkle in the noise reduction transform. Everything else you are likely to use for cassette clean-up is the same as in CE2K.
Some people have reported good results with that new NR facility; some have reported they get better results with it set so NR operates exactly as it did before this facility existed. I, and quite a few other people, use(ed) the older version of NR without introducing artifacts. It is just a matter of knowing how to use the tool. This doesn't say I wouldn't like the new version, but I don't judge it an adequate reason to upgrade. I only do LP clean-up and most of the tools in any version of CE would never come into play.
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SteveG
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 6695
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Posted - Tue Jun 10, 2003 3:34 pm
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| AndyH wrote: |
| I understand wanting to get the best performance, but sometimes "good enough" is actually good enough. This isn't any different from SteveG's information, but perhaps a different expression of the facts will make an impression. If you sample cassettes, and record at a high enough level so that the peaks are not more than a few dB down from 0dBfs, all your information will be in the upper 12 to 14dBs (my estimate; you can argue about the details). It doesn't really matter how deep below that your card goes, there will be nothing there but noise. Processing at 32 bit is still recommended for the reasons that have been discussed many times. |
Even with a really good cassette, you will still have a noise floor of around -60dB tops between the tracks. So if you under-record by 4-5dB, that still gives you 5 of your 16 bits just to process the noise!
But because the Mia is a good card, it's 16-bit resolution, which it easily takes in its stride, is rather more accurate than a poorer card running flat out. It's still worth shopping in the Roller! (You can get the assistants to carry your shopping to the car if you play your cards right. Never quite managed that with my Daimler, though...)
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DJClifft
Location: USA
Posts: 99
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Audiophile 2496 and Echo Mia questions