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lunaray Posts: 13	Posted - Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:46 pm  I hate having to constantly adjust my record level for whatever audio source I'm using: LP's, tapes, etc.; they're all different, and they all need individual attention! Is there an auto-record-level setting somewhere? I haven't been able to find one if there is! Thanks!
SteveG Location: United Kingdom Posts: 6695	Posted - Mon Mar 17, 2003 1:28 am  All record functions are controlled by the OS and card drivers, and not CEP, which merely initiates the record function. There is no 'automatic record level' system available at all, and with a lot of 'pro' audio cards, you couldn't implement one anyway, because they have no on-board record level controls. With a 24-bit audio card, this isn't really an issue. Assuming that you only need to make a relatively small adjustment to the input levels, basically the answer is to record in 32-bit and not to bother - just normalise the file afterwards. Chances are that if you use the record level control at any setting other than the nominally zero-gain option on the card anyway, you will be losing more resolution than you will be by normalising the file anyway! If you are needing to make large adjustments, then you will probably have poorly recorded source material in the first place, which is always going to require manual intervention to establish the correct setting. The other solution to this is to use a small stereo line mixer at the input to the card, and dedicate individual channels to your widely-varying sources. This way, you can leave the card input level optimised, and make the adjustments externally. The other thing you can do if you want to be able to get at the record level control more easily (assuming that you are using the Windows mixer) is to make a shortcut to the record section on your desktop. The path is C:\WINDOWS\SNDVOL32.EXE -r and it's the -r that gets you directly to the record section - leave it off and you can make another shortcut to the play/monitor controls. _________________
ozpeter Location: Australia Posts: 3200	Posted - Mon Mar 17, 2003 4:24 am  I think with the Audio Sliders replacement for the Windows Mixer, it allows you to memorise and recall various set-ups you might use for various situations - I've got it but just at this moment haven't the time to explore this fully - check out their site, I think you can download an evaluation copy, and see if it looks like it might help. - Ozpeter
ozpeter Location: Australia Posts: 3200	Posted - Mon Mar 17, 2003 4:44 am  ... or, there's a program Out There on the net called 'ALC record' which claims to record with automatic level control. I've just been dumb enough to download it and from a glance at the help file and the program interface, it looks like a reasonable piece of software - I'll report back here when I've actually tried it (if my PC still works at all. Graeme would be ashamed of me for installing unknown stuff on my audio pc). - Ozpeter
mjb Posts: 167	Posted - Mon Mar 17, 2003 5:11 am  ozpeter wrote: ... or, there's a program Out There on the net called 'ALC record' which claims to record with automatic level control Mini rant. I hate ALC, AGCs etc. On equipment where there is no way to turn them off, and no way to bypass them, it is the manufacturer's way of saying "Look. We've dumbed it down enough for even you to use it. You can't be trusted to get it right, so we know best". SONY minidisc players that have AGCs on: The best way to destroy a performance. A few times people have asked on here "how do I reverse the effect?" because a live recording has been damaged by the AGC. Some CD->Tape copying mechanisms have a fixed level (not even AGC!) that leaves digital 0dbFS at -3 on the VU. Almost OK for modern compressed to hell pop. But not ok for anything with dynamic range, where the level ends up down in the tape hiss. All this because someone wants to cut a few pence off the design cost, and because they think that their "standard" setup will suit everything! I don't see AGC as a useful feature. Learn how to set the levels by hand, it's a useful skill. As has been said, if you are working in 24bit, only a gross over signal can cause you troubles. Stamp out ALCs ! They are the electronic audio equivalent of the "I see you're trying to write a letter. Would you like me to write it for you, illiterate fool?" Microsoft wizards :) Mike.
SteveG Location: United Kingdom Posts: 6695	Posted - Mon Mar 17, 2003 5:27 am  ozpeter wrote: ... or, there's a program Out There on the net called 'ALC record' which claims to record with automatic level control. I've just been dumb enough to download it and from a glance at the help file and the program interface, it looks like a reasonable piece of software - I'll report back here when I've actually tried it (if my PC still works at all. Graeme would be ashamed of me for installing unknown stuff on my audio pc). - Ozpeter mjb's perfectly laudable rant notwithstatnding, isn't any ALC device going to give you 'zipper' noise? I can't see how else it can actually change the record level on a dynamic basis. And if it works with my Mia, I'd be amazed! And if I know anything about Graeme at all, I think that he will be primarily horrified by the thought that you are even contemplating an ALC device rather than where you've actually installed it... _________________
ozpeter Location: Australia Posts: 3200	Posted - Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:44 am  Don't shoot the messenger, I'm only answering the question! For almost all purposes, yes, an ALC can be a horrible thing, but there are circumstances (IMHO) where it can be handy, and I'm a collector-of-tools-for-the-armoury (you should see my loft!), which doesn't imply that I'd inappropriately use them. Having said that, offline I typed the following, and just to upset the purists, here it is:- Quote: "ALC Record" - http://www.in-berlin.de/user/scorpio/. As this isn't an editor, and it may well answer the question above, I see no harm in reviewing it here (and Synt can always delete it if it's out of line!). Perhaps those who most need a program like this will be the ones least likely to understand how it works..... It's not that difficult, but it does require you to select metering source, soundcard device and input line to be controlled. If you can't understand the Windows Mixer, then you won't understand this, I fear. The author's native language isn't English but the help file is quite worthy for all that. The program cannot be used directly with Cool Edit, because two recording programs cannot be used at once and 'ALC Record' counts as one, but it can record a wave file itself (parameters selectable), or can be used to set the correct level in the soundcard's mixer prior to closing 'ALC Record' and using CE for the actual recording. In either event, it's recommended to let the programme material run for a minute or two to set an initial level. 'ALC Record' has a 'monitor' button to achieve this, and while it works you can watch the fader (both in the application and in the windows mixer if it's running) going up and down appropriately - lots of fun if you need to get a life. Then you can specify a filename, hit the record button, and off you go. Other facilities allow for triggering record at a predetermined level (so you can work the controls of your source and not have to worry about starting the recording) and provision for starting and stopping the recording at times you can set relative to the length of the material. You can determine also whether the level is to reduce only, or rise and fall according to the dynamics of the programme. How well does it work? Certainly you won't get any samples greater than the value you set (in the Advanced Settings menu option), but this is accomplished by a pretty fierce hard limiter which comes into operation while the fader is being lowered, giving noticable flattening of the peaks of transients especially in the first few seconds. That's why it's wise to give it a minute of two of material to pre-set the fader before recording. If you record into Cool Edit the limiting will not occur, but if you haven't monitored enough material with "ALC Record" first, later peaks may cause digital clipping. All in all, for less than mission-critical situations, it's a useful tool to allow transfers to be undertaken without having to check through all the material first. It would help avoid gross overload of a recording if you weren't on hand to reduce the fader yourself if there was a sudden increase in the incoming level. For the original questioner, it could well be the answer, or for anyone undertaking logging-type applications, it's worth a look. Its only use of the Registry is to store the user's settings, so I'd expect it not to muck up your audio pc - but the risk is yours of course! The cost? Nothing - it's described as "peaceware", about which I will comment no further in this forum. - Ozpeter (ducking, pun not intended...)
Graeme Member Location: Spain Posts: 4663	Posted - Mon Mar 17, 2003 11:18 am  ozpeter wrote: Graeme would be ashamed of me for installing unknown stuff on my audio pc). Actually, as SteveG has already correctly assumed, I'm more ashamed of the fact that you would even consider using an ALC device in the first place. They really have little to do with quality recording. Of all the various types of restoration work I have been handed over the years, without a doubt the most difficult to sort out have been those made with some sort of auto level control. _________________ Graeme Don't forget to join the new CEP forum at audiomastersforum
SteveG Location: United Kingdom Posts: 6695	Posted - Mon Mar 17, 2003 1:12 pm  ozpeter wrote: Don't shoot the messenger, I'm only answering the question! For almost all purposes, yes, an ALC can be a horrible thing, but there are circumstances (IMHO) where it can be handy, and I'm a collector-of-tools-for-the-armoury (you should see my loft!), which doesn't imply that I'd inappropriately use them. Now isn't this pretty much what Einstein et al said about the Atomic Bomb? (I only said it was possible - I'm not morally responsible for what you do with it = the ultimate cop-out.) Trouble is, when somebody else gets hold of ALC who isn't quite so able to make sensible judgements about its use, we get the posts about "how do i get rid of the level changes that my lovely ALC device, that makes me so lazy, introduces?" Sometimes, for the greater good, it is better not to answer some questions directly, IMHO. Feel free to disagree by all means, but you won't change my mind! Okay, perhaps a slightly contentious reply... _________________
ozpeter Location: Australia Posts: 3200	Posted - Mon Mar 17, 2003 10:39 pm  Well, we could get into a lengthy debate on this one! I'll pass over the comparison between me and Einstein (that's a first) and between ALC and the nuclear bomb (is it that bad?!) and concentrate on the issue of discretion and what should be 'revealed' to those who might not be able to make sensible judgements. That's a hard line to follow and a difficult judgement to make - most if all of the tools available within Cool Edit can very easily be misused to provide some pretty gross results, and doubtless have been, but if we answered questions on them only from those who seemed up to the responsibility of using them, I'd guess there would be a whole lot less posts here. One could equally say that Syntrillium shouldn't market CE other than to professionals, whereas I'd judge their target market to be much wider than that. In my post on this utility I've drawn attention to its restricted usefulness - and to the fact that it can be used as a down-only and/or presetting-only level setter - and I'd concede that with "non-mission-critical" material a slightly 'undercooked' 16+ bit recording would be probably be preferable than an ALC recording, given the dynamic range available - and personally I have no current plans to use this apart perhaps from logging the dogs' barking when I'm out - but I don't feel guilty about indescretion in this case (though I may have been on other occasions, I'd concede). - Ozpeter PS - Graeme, perhaps I should have said 'non-quality' instead of 'non-mission-critical'. I entirely agree that ALC has no place in anything professional.
Mark T Location: Norway Posts: 890	Posted - Tue Mar 18, 2003 5:26 am  Quote: I hate having to constantly adjust my record level for whatever audio source I'm using: LP's, tapes, etc.; they're all different, and they all need individual attention! Is there an auto-record-level setting somewhere? Poor old Lunaray! All he wanted was something like ozpeters suggestion Quote: I think with the Audio Sliders replacement for the Windows Mixer, it allows you to memorise and recall various set-ups you might use for various situations And he triggers a full landslide:O. If I had found an auto level setter somewhere before I bought a mixer, it might have been useful for different setups (recording, playing DI, mixing etc.) as I have two sound cards, one for midi and one for analogue. But I agree absolutely about ALC (spit, spit!) _________________ Mark nil desperandum - nunc est bibendum
ozpeter Location: Australia Posts: 3200	Posted - Tue Mar 18, 2003 5:40 am  I've just checked and AudioSliders does enable mixer configurations and fader positions to be stored as selectable presets to address your own differing requirements under various circumstances. So you could have a 'record from tape' preset, a 'record from digital input' preset, etc etc. www.codesector.com is the site. - Ozpeter
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