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yesman · Posted - Fri Jan 31, 2003 9:54 pm

I've got about 18 tracks running in a 5 minute song, many have real time echo and reverb added in. The song is stuttering in spots during playback. It didn't stutter when I recorded, only after I started mixing what I have, applying volume envelopes and effects. What do I do ? I have Windows XP, Delta 1010, 256 Ram, 40 gig hard drive. In the lower right corner of CEP 2.O it says "28.26 GB free." I have other programs installed on this computer, but I don't run them when I run CEP 2.0.

I did a search and tried adjusting certain settings as advised. What can I do ? Do I need a more powerful system ? This is my first real song done on CEP 2.0.

Thanks,

yesman

oretez · Posted - Fri Jan 31, 2003 10:58 pm

make sure you save your original session

'real' reverb is one of the most difficult things for digital to emulate and is a resource hog. as a test disengage all effects, don't use any.

if system does not stutter you know that the tigger appears to be the fx . . . add them back in in variations (echo first etc., one track at time etc.) find the point where the stuttering begins

then see what happens when you 'lock' the tracks

if disengaging fx doesn't clear stuttering, as a test, reduce track count one at a time (make sure any of the tests you save are assigned different names) until suttering goes away.

If you haven't already done it look, for some of the optimazation articles (search should turn up a couple of threads on this forum) and pull out applicable info for modifying system

With XP I'm not sure how much specific help I can be (I don't have enough experience as to which services can be reliably removed, or how much improvement removing them might provide, for example) but there are a couple of rules of thumb. Make sure drives are set for DMA, disable any TSR's you know about (anti-virus software for example)when you record or mix, disable all 'system' sounds . . . the little wooshes clicks and pops that programs so like to inundate us with. check to see if audio card console software allows you to adjust 'latency', if it does increase that setting (if that makes no difference in the stuttering put it back to default). Defragment your drive, if you don't already have a second drive think seriously about acquiring one (I've seen 7200rpm ATA133 40 gig HD's for as cheap as $70), if possible you don't want CEP temp files on the same drive as the system temp files.

there are a number of other adjustments, some specific to specific systems, that can make a difference in performance . . . but in the past I have regularly & comfortably processed 24+ tracks on an AMD 700MHz, 256 (and less) RAM with a 10 gig system drive and 20 gig recording drive -- now that setup was a bit lite for serious reverb or more than a handful of simultaneous plugins in general (oh yeah that system ran win98se and I haven't upgraded to CEP2.0 yet)

(I think Microsoft indicates 64 ram as minimum but consensus seems to be that 128 is real threshold, and more than one person has suggested to me that 256 is a functional min. . . . so with RAM prices where they are boosting system to max. you can afford is also a very good idea)

oh yeah, what maybe should have been first suggestion, make sure you have the most recent 1010 drivers . . . in last quarter of '02 a lot of companies finally release XP drivers that worked.
good luck

yesman · Posted - Sat Feb 01, 2003 2:21 pm

Okay, so I took off all the real time effects, and now it's not stuttering. Is that something that is not normally used by CEP2 users ? I mean, why would they provide that feature if it is too much for a system to handle ? I only had 6 tracks with real time effects. It does not seem like much. I prefer the real time effects because then I can adjust the effect easily while listening, whereas by applying the effect to the waveform permanently (with undo of course), it is not possible to listen to my adjustment while the song plays. I have to make an adjustment, apply it to the waveform, then listen to the song, then go back, undo, adjust, apply, listen. You can't tweak the effect parameters to hear what your adjustmant is doing to the waveform, you have to apply it, then hear it. Also I have to make and keep a copy of the track so I still have a dry version if I decide later on that I don't like the effect. It's just not as user friendly. It's not a very intuitive way to mix.

Is there anyone out there using the real time effects regularly, and what type of system would I need to do that ? More Ram, or more hard drive memory...?

yesman · Posted - Sat Feb 01, 2003 2:27 pm

So oretez when you said "make sure you save your original session", what were you implying ? Is it typical to have several versions of a session ? I always just save it the way I have it at the end of the night, I can always go back and change parts. But I guess it would be good if you have different ideas for the song and wanted to save them in different versions, different "sessions"...what exactly did you mean ?

Gulliver · Location: Estonia

Yesman... use "lock" feature on the tracks with real time effects. When you lock a track CEP writes down (a kind of mixes down) that track with its real time effect to a hard disk and will play it from there as a track with a printed effect. This (locking) takes a little time and after that you can't make any changes to the locked track... until you unlock it. Unlocking a track happens very quickly (almost instantly) then you can make again any changes you want. Then lock the track again... and so on. (See the button "Lock" near the button "FX" at the beginning of any track).
Yes (man), 6 tracks with real time effects are mot much, BUT if even only one of them has reverb (especially Full Reverb) applied to it then... chances are processor would go nuts trying to do all the calculating necessary for making reverb happen in real time.

yesman · Posted - Sat Feb 01, 2003 6:42 pm

Locking did not help. I tried Locking all of the effected tracks, but the stuttering continued.

Well, isn't reverb the most commonly used effect ? I mean, I usually put a little reverb on everything, even if just a touch. This makes the sounds blend better. Anyway I had reverb on 5 of the tracks and echo on 1. I tried to use Full Reverb, but CEP2 warned me it would be difficult to do in real time and suggested using Quickverb, which I did. But obviously the Quickverb is too difficult also. So what does this mean ? I just can't use real time reverb ?

VoodooRadio · Location: USA

Personally, I think that ver 2.0 is ALOT more of a processor "hog" than ver 1.2a. I experienced the same problems with the "demo", thus I am waiting for a 2nd release that (hopefully) addresses this shortcoming. I have NEVER had a problem with 1.2a. Shy

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

Yesman, what speed processor are you running in this PC? You didn't actually say...

VooDoo is right - CEP2.0 is more processor-intensive than 1.2 - but so is WinXP. You really do need to stop a lot of background stuff running if you are going to get any sort of reasonable performance out of XP, and then, according to Zemlin, a few threads away, it will run at just the same speed as Win2000. (hehe!) But you really do need a stripped-down system anyway if you are going to get any sort of performance with audio processing.

zemlin · Location: USA

yesman · Posted - Sun Feb 02, 2003 2:49 pm

I have a Pentium 4 processor. So what do I have to do, remove programs from my computer to get this to work the way I want ? Should I really have a separate set-up just for music ? I thought my system would be powerful enough to handle both. I thought if I am not running any other programs, they should not be using any power. Is this correct ?

zemlin · Location: USA

It seems most folks end up with an "Audio Only" box. It didn't take me long to get there. You say you don't have any other programs running, but Windows loads up all kinds of stuff you don't need. Each of these programs take a little RAM and a little CPU. Right now on my NONDAW box I have 34 processes running. I have a few apps on the screen, but most of those processes are system things.

I also have a few applications running on my DAW and I have 17 processes on that machine.

There are lots of threads about optimization, so I won't get into details here - a quick search will turn up more than you want to know - but visual effects should all be turned off - TWEAKUI available in MS PowerTools is a good one for that. Lots of services can be shut down - www.blkviper.com is a good resource for that. I use his GAMER config. The 3D effect borders in XP drag down performance. It all boils down to keep it simple. Antivirus programs stick their noses into everything. I scan my DAW remotely on occation, but other than that it is not protected by anything except my common sense.

I collected a bunch of old parts along with a new cheapo case, used motherboard and CPU - my first DAW set me back about $175. I have upgraded since then an now my DAW is the fastest CPU in the house.

Graeme · Member Location: Spain

ozpeter · Location: Australia

And that dedicated setup, in comparative historical terms, will cost you very little given what it will be capable of doing. (Of course if you haven't got the money in any event, then you've still got a problem).

VoodooRadio · Location: USA

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

Actually, VooDoo, I think that was a trick question... Real-time FX? CEP1.2?

yesman · Posted - Sun Feb 02, 2003 6:34 pm

Zemlin, what exactly do you mean "...Windows loads up all kinds of stuff you don't need..." ? I thought my programs were not running unless I opened them. If I just have CEP2 open, isn't it the only program that is using power ? Is there a way to set Windows so it is not loading things ?

zemlin · Location: USA

zemlin · Location: USA

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

yesman · Posted - Sun Feb 02, 2003 7:38 pm

SteveG, I checked out Windows Task Manager. With everything closed, it shows no Applications "running". Under Processes it lists a bunch of stuff but they all say zero under CPU (except for "taskmanager"). Then I started up CEP2, and played my song. It showed numbers varying between 30 to 50 CPU for CEP2. Then I started applying real time effects, like I had them, on 6 tracks. At that point the CPU number for CEP2 was reaching 100, and all the others were still zero. And the sound was stuttering.

Will it really help to adjust my settings for Windows XP, if it appears that in fact it is actually not running anything that is closed ? Could it be that systems just can't handle that much real time fx from CEP2 ?

Do you guys use as much real time fx as I am suggesting, or do you avoid using them most of the time ? Is there anyone on here that is actually using them exclusively with no problems ?

yesman · Posted - Sun Feb 02, 2003 7:45 pm

What I'm getting at is, why do I need a stripped down audio only system, if I am not using other programs (and not using CPU) at the time I use CEP2 ? I know the other programs take up memory...but I can always add on to that....

zemlin · Location: USA

The windows processes use RAM and sometimes use CPU and other system resources like the hard disk. The more you remove the more it will help. Other applications load all kinds of DLLs, drivers, and who know what into the system. These can have a negative effect on reliablity. If you want a rock-solid system then you want it a clean of debris as possible. My DAW has ONLY audio applications on it.

It also sounds like you need to work on how you apply effects and which effects you choose. Effects use CPU. How much depends on the particular effect. There are techniques you can use to reduce the amount of overhead. If you are using the same effect on several tracks, route those through a bus and apply the effect to the bus.

If you are satisfied the with the sound you have on a track and that track has a CPU hungry effect, lock that track (not locked in time or lock for playback, the LOCK on the mixer that calculates the effects ahead of time). FULL reverb sucks a lot of CPU - I can only run 2 or 3 tracks of full reverb. I generally use the ULTRAFUNK reverb which is very lean, but different verbs give different sounds, so if the full reverb is what you want, plan on locking that track.

If you LOCK tracks and have the diskspace you might want to have CEP save the locked tracks (see settings/multitrack).

If you have a track that is very CPU heavy with effects and you want to work on the effects settings, lock all the other tracks or bypass their effects (right-click on the FX button on the mixer) so they unload the computer.

oretez · Posted - Sun Feb 02, 2003 10:26 pm

You now have some idea of what the problem is, and unfortunately there isn't, necessarily, a quick fix.

You haven't indicated yet whether you are using multiple drives. If not get a second drive, check some of the optimazation threads for best approach to formating the drive, for NTFS it is different than for FAT32 so I'm not going to stick a toe in the water with a recomendation, I just don't have enough experience

find an idiot cousin and get them to loan you money for more RAM, get the fasest you can find, the most you can afford (particularly if you like reverb on everything and want to adjust in real time . . . )nothing you do by way of hardware is going to alter the fact that 'real' reverb is computationally intense and the better the algorithm the more intese the computation . . . but adding RAM will help a bit

check to see if you can adjust latency, somewhat inaccurately and roughly speaking what this does is make it take longer for what is happening during playback to get to you, but can allow the various processes to catch up with each other

a 2nd drive & more RAM are issues you are going to want to take care off whether they cure your problem or not. The various optimaztion tweaks can make a significant difference, in Win98 disabling read ahead and write back cache can significantly increase track count for example. Defragmenting drives makes a difference, working from a drive that doesn't have to sort through a multitude of small files, doesn't have to interleave data makes a difference

and you can take different approaches to how you work . . . preview some reverb settings with less intense algorithms, if you use the same setting for more than one track process it through a bus, then apply full reverb on mix down

process submixes, add those to the mix san's any new effects . . .

spring for an outboard Fx box

I'm not a big fan of artificial reverb in general and an unfan of digital reverb so I've never faced exactly the same problem . . . but the basic approach, reducing system overhead, increasing RAM, getting recording away from system drive will benefit all aspects of the recording process

the reason for saving multiple sessions is so that you can return instaneously to original conditions and don't have to guess, and putter around with figuring whether you've actually resolved issue or not . . . even while I was relatively certain the stutter trigger in this case was going to be lite on RAM heavy on reverb it could have been 'need to defragment' and it doesn't hurt to have the original session as a 'bench mark' for every change you make

anyway good luck

yesman · Posted - Sun Feb 02, 2003 11:26 pm

No, I'm only using one drive. I would have another drive if I knew I needed it. What do you suggest ? And you said "more RAM". How much should I have ?

Well I tried sending the tracks to Bus A and Bus B and applying the delay and reverb there, but I am still getting the same problem. This is disturbing. I thought I had a system that could do this. I went to a store called Computers and Music in SF and he told me all the specs I would need to make music on the computer. I explained what I wanted to do, he told me what to get. He said I'd be "flyin'." I guess he does not use real time effects. I guess most of you guys here do not use real time effects ? Well I'll just have to get used to using the destructive effects, I'm not about to start using my outboard effects box, I want to mix everything in here, that was the whole point...why do they even provide the real time effects if this is what's gonna happen ? They were one of the main reasons I bought the program, and now I can't use them unless I reconfigure things...anyway thanks for the input everyone.

yesman

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

VoodooRadio · Location: USA

zemlin · Location: USA

VoodooRadio · Location: USA

zemlin · Location: USA

I suppose the day will come - sooner than we think - when some reverb effects will be based on a 3D model. You'll be able to download an acoustic model of the Sydney Opera House, select the sound source location on stage, the location of the listener, and the rest will be done with realtime raytracing (wavetracing?) calculations.

VoodooRadio · Location: USA

Which is akin to how "modeling" software works. Using mic modeling, you tell the software what type/brand of mic you actually used and then what type/brand you want modeled. The software has the response curves for a large variety of mics and it loads up the response curves for the two and does any additive/subtractive calculations to "simulate" the desired mic. In a nutshell.... it makes for a fairly unique (and expensive) E.Q.!!! Shy

yesman · Posted - Mon Feb 03, 2003 8:52 pm

So for those of you who don't use the real time effects, how do you do your effects ? I'm going to keep a dry version of each track, and create wet versions with the destructive effects. Then mute the dry tracks and mix the wet ones. I guess I'll just have to try doing it that way. I can always go back and make new versions of the wet tracks, so long as I save the dry versions.

Still, nobody has answered my question ("Does anyone here use the real time effects exclusively ?") so I guess that means nobody does, everybody figured out like I did that they have to avoid using them...I did not realize they took so much power and I would need a super high powered audio only system...

jonrose · Location: USA

Well, this won't answer your question but perhaps the additional insight might be interesting to you.

I can't think of a single mix I've done lately that didn't require running at least a couple of the tracks "outboard" - mostly just to acquire a distinctive sound from particular hardware, usually, but sometimes for some intense kinds of reverbs and such - some of which would take a lot longer to set up an appropriate analog within Cool Edit, anyway.

But yes, all the rest of the effects are real time, in 2.0 - I've really not had too much trouble, as I've kept the "full reverb" kind of stuff to an absolute minimum, and bussed anything that can take the same effect. This just comes from being able to see where you want to go with your mix and realizing how to get there with the tools you have available, though - and this is true with any kind of mixing, whether on the computer or the old-fashioned way (or a mixture of both!)

Anyway, I just think that there's no sense in overtaxing the CPU when I've got one hell of a lot of work to do and no time to chase trouble!
;)

All the best... -Jon

oretez · Posted - Tue Feb 04, 2003 2:49 am

Mark T · Location: Norway

Hi there Yesman,

I can't rty to fix your problems (I run Win98), but I do run CEP2.0 and I usually manage to run up to 3-4 tracks with 2-3 realtime fx on each. If I get breakup I mixdown one of the tracks and save it with a new name so that I still have the original to go back to. I have got used to mixing the drums first, then mixing them down to a single stereo track before I start working on the rest of the mix. I sometimes have to go back and remix the drums, but I save a session with all the drums laid out so it doesn't usually take very long.

It isn't perfect, but nothing is, and CEP is a lot closer than some:D

Good Luck - don't give up.

Gulliver · Location: Estonia

VoodooRadio · Location: USA

Everyone's mileage varies.... I personally (as alluded to) use the wet/dry track process regularly. At times, I'll even have more than one of the "wet" tracks in service. For large multi-track sessions, I'll change the color of the "wet" track display to allow me to find them faster when mixing. To each his/her own. Wink

yesman · Posted - Tue Feb 04, 2003 9:13 pm

" . . . you have to evolve a work flow, a way of working that gets the job done for you"

yes I know exactly what you mean. I'm trying to get to that point. Like in the past when I mixed my ADAT on my Mackie, I established a system that worked for me...I don't feel I need to know everything there is, just how to do what I want to do to achieve the sounds I hear in my head.

"And if you haven't found out before now this is actually a pretty cheap lesson that 'retail' is not the best place for recording advice"

I didn't buy anything from this guy, I just asked for his advice. He wasn't trying to sell me anything...it was his honest advice...I'm not mad though...

For the record, I was using Quickverb and Echo on 2 buses for some 6 tracks, tried locking but still got the stuttering...enough on that already...

Thanks for all the advice everyone, I'm gonna try the dry track/100% wet track mixing method and see how that goes...that sounds better than my other idea because I will be able to adjust more easily when needed....actually I used to use that same method with my ADAT/Mackie/and Midiverb 4, before I figured out how to use the aux out/returns (duh!)...thanks,

Jon

zemlin · Location: USA