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Erik O. · Location: Denmark

There seems to be a secret about audio processing/mixing, that everyone from Paul Simon to Bonnie Prince Billie to everyone posting their work in newsgroups and musicforums know, except for little me:

When I listen to other peoples recordings through headphones, I notice that all sounds (with panning, effects an everything) are placed beautifully on a string line in the center of my head - from ear to ear, or maybe a little behind my ears - giving the impression of "being there" or being whispered in my ears. Through amplifiers the sound will appear very up front, almost in front of the amps, giving the same present feeling as with headphones.

My recordings sound opposite : in headphones the sounds will appear close to my forehead, the pannings sound more rough (not only hard l/r pannings) and through amplifiers the sound will be withdrawn and not very present. This will happen whether the mix is simple or busy - and with or without effects.

What is "it" I'm missing? Is it small tiny delays, high frequency simulation, a speciel kind of eq, channel mixing or something else?

I have tried everything mentioned above (including something else!) without luck. The closest I've gotten to that present sound was by accident when I recorded some old work from my computer into a cassette deck. That's nice. I'm not any wiser, though.

I hope all this makes sence and I'm really looking forward to be enlightened on this.
(Finally I got the nerve to ask!)

Thanks a lot

Erik

beetle · Location: USA

All it takes is patience, experimenation and practice!

There is no one way to record or mix anything.

You gotta remember that all of those big name artists are usually using veteran engineers and producers.

Some of the sound comes from the mastering stage and those big name people are using mega-buck veteran pros.

But there's no reason that, with some learning and experience you couldn't do the same thing.

yoshi · Posted - Sun Apr 22, 2001 8:22 am

are you saving your work in Stereo? of mono

yoshi · Posted - Sun Apr 22, 2001 8:25 am

Brainwave Synchronizer...look it up in CEP, this might help

beetle · Location: USA

Yosi, I don't think this guy needs the flip answers. He may not know you are kidding and take your suggestions seriously and really screw up his work.

Cheers!

rogier · Posted - Mon Apr 23, 2001 12:38 am

try panning your tracks a little before mix down,this might help a bit,and just keep trying.Experience is everything.Also try panning on your mixing panel for the real time effects and then write down when your satisfied.also be sure you have got a very good headphone because this can really make the difference.good luck!

Jim Love · Posted - Mon Apr 23, 2001 9:08 am

Erik, I think you are discovering the necessity for a litle good old stereo multitracking. For instance, if you have an electric guitar part, play it twice, and pan each one on a different side. If it is not desirable to do that, you may want to try to put a gentle stereo chorus on the instrument(you will end up with a stereo track). Be extremely careful with this effect though or you could get nasty results. Experimentation is the best. You would be surprised at how little it takes to create the pleasing stereo effect. Some instruments should be straight down the middle, like kick drum and bass. Sometimes just a stereo reverb is enough to add a widenening effect. There are many other tricks people have used in the past. Listen to Eddie Van Halen, he puts his guitar straight on one side and all the reverb on the other. He ends up with a pretty cool stereo sound, kind of dated though. I have gotten mono wav files and widened them nicely with stereo effect all available in CE.

John D · Posted - Mon Apr 23, 2001 9:31 am

actually I,being a bass player, record the bass and make a copy tp another track and than pan one track left and one track right with the kick right down the middle. You'll be surprised how this makes for a real good kick-bass mix

BVD · Posted - Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:26 am

Eric,
Checkout my reply to the post:
'Standard Tecniques' on 4/23.

Bill

Erik O. · Location: Denmark

Thanks for answering everybody, I really appreciate it.

It seems, though, that I left the impression of being a complete newbie, which is not the case. I do experiment a lot with effect panning, double trakcs with different eq and the other things I mentioned above to reach the effect I'm looking for.

I read "The art of mixing" by David Gibson. It's a really great book that I learned many good manners from - he talks a lot about how to bring sounds back and forth in the sound picture, but it still don't disclose the secret.

One of my soundfonts that contains temple blocks, does actually have the effect build into it. The sound will appear in the middle of my head (using headphones) when there's no panning and through amplifiers the sound will be clear and present and maybe a bit ahead of the amps. This could indicate that what I'm looking for is more simple than the mastering issue, that Beetlefan suggested.

Yoshi, I will not mess with this Brainwave Sync. I'm not gonna hypnotize myself into anything (thanks for your concern Beetle :o)- but I don't think it was ment as a joke).

Rogier, I can see the value of using good headphones. I've got the Sennheiser T 80 Wireless, which will confront you with faults of any kind in the mix. It may have a slight tendency to make the sound better than it is, which of course is very flattering - at least until you turn your monitors on!

Once more, thanks all.

Erik.

Erik O. · Location: Denmark

Jim, I always record my guitars (both acc. and el.) twice and often pan them hard L/R - I love that effect.
But I will still not have that feeling of being tickled in my ears.
I realize that it's very hard for me to describe exactly what it is I'm trying to achieve, so I guess I'll just have to keep on trying.

BTW I'm waiting for the C1 microphone to be back in stock - I'll have a pair of these and experiment with different positions, that is one thing I didn't try.

Greg · Posted - Mon Apr 23, 2001 6:09 pm

"The Art Of Mixing" by David Gibson is a good book, industry standard I believe, about how to achieve a good mix. It has a graphical method of stringing the sounds out in the mix, for many different music genres. Amazon.com has it for a good price.
I think that Erik O. would like it based upon his post. The graphics are superb, but are backed up by the text which gives, uh, secrets to achieving the sounds that are illustrated.

Sparky · Posted - Wed May 09, 2001 9:39 am

One thing you might try, I don't know if this is exactly what your looking for but will give you a direction to go in, is record a track in stereo, then select just the left or right chan and invert it. It really changes the stereophonic quality of the sound.

Graeme · Member Location: Spain

urumuqi74 · Posted - Wed May 09, 2001 11:54 am

RobertM · Posted - Wed May 09, 2001 12:45 pm

Hey, Sparky, welcome to the forum! A bit of 'baptism by fire' going on here for you, I think. Don't let this discourage you from making subsequent postings... all are welcome, and some will generate considerable discussion / disagreement. If you are inexperienced at digital audio editing then spend some time (days!) reading lots of the older postings. If you do have lots of experience, then... stand up and defend yourself! ;->

beetle · Location: USA

Everytime I listen to *that* type of music I always hear those voices in my head telling me that i'm not supposed to understand it so no one should bother explaining it to me. Classism?

No, even newbies should hear the advice. I learned by listening to the more experienced. Advice isn't always wastsd. Sometimes people listen. We should not judge who gets to hear it.

Anyway, Graeme is right. Your super-duper mix should be MONO-compatable if you should ever desire the mix to be heard/played by anyone else. You just can't know what the public will hear your stuff on. You want your music to sound good, even on little 3" mono TV speakers!

Teddy G. · Posted - Wed May 09, 2001 2:10 pm

Have you tried listening to your stuff in another environment. Another room, another place entirely. In your car? Could just be something truly wrong in your system?

Teddy G. · Posted - Wed May 09, 2001 2:14 pm

I really dislike the reaction I get when I hit the tab to indent a paragraph!!!
Anyway, how about this cassette machine thing? Does the cassette machine you used have an AGC, or other built-in processing device that might have made things sound more "processed/compressed" and that was closer to what you're looking for?

Chiefgunner · Posted - Wed May 09, 2001 4:19 pm

Boy Bettle, you hit the nail right on the head. Experimentation and experience, The two things that are most expediant to learn this audio production stuff. All to often some of us are afraid to experience and experiment.

urumuqi74 · Posted - Wed May 09, 2001 6:30 pm

Yes chiefgunner, this thread is turning into a carpentry session!!!

My latest comment was more directed on trying to be imaginative on the final mixdown rather than follow the pre-defined mold of the industry.

How many albums such as Pink Floyd - Darkside of the moon can be listed as perfect 10 mixdown album?

mtotton · Posted - Thu May 10, 2001 12:44 am

Hei Erik,

I am on the same journet as you I believe, I am not a newbie, but still have plenty to learn. I have also faced (and still partly face)the same question regarding finalising my music.

As usual the forum has good (and not so good) advice. Beetle as always is on the button when he says experience and practice. However, I will offer some of my experiences and hope that some of it may help.

I spent ages trying to understand all the good mixing and mastering advice that is available, and felt that it was too general. Then I found that Computer Music were running a series of articles on mixing and mastering which gave both general advice and advice on specific settings for indivisual instruments. Now, we all know these are just a starting point for your own preferences, but I found it an incredibly good starting point and heard an immediate improvement in my mixes. You may be able to order back copies. I also found that T-Racks 24 mastering software made a huge difference (even just using the presets), there are no doubt others as good or better that is just the one I found and liked.

The last advice is don't use headphones, use near field monitors for creating the stereo image and the final mix. Lots of rubbish sounds good on headphones butt awful on speakers, but if it sounds good on speakers,it weill usualy sound fantastic on headphones.

Good luck

Mark

urumuqi74 · Posted - Fri May 11, 2001 8:07 am

BVDD · Posted - Fri May 11, 2001 9:06 am

Tell you what,
Nobody in the world is going to know
exactly what Erik O. is looking for without
sitting with him in a room and dissecting
the music. We're all doing the best we can
not knowing him or what he's hearing. If any of us think we're such big shots that we can trash ideas like Sparky's, then we're showing how insecure and stupid we are. We
can join in the clicky crowd and praise Pink
Floyd and the like .. but do you think the big boys got that far putting down someone else's honest and creative effort to help?
Wake up people.

vincent · Posted - Fri May 11, 2001 9:34 am

1) One thing very important is the phases problems. First you must verify there is no phase inversion in your installation wiring.
Check (Left to left and right to right) L&R channels of mics,speakers,phones and line between PC and audio system.
If you mix your job with an inverted channel when you will listen it on normal stereo system the sound will be very flat & poor.

2) With CEP you have the possibility to invert the phase of some tracks to expand stereo effects and depth. There are many tests to do in this direction ...

vincent · Posted - Fri May 11, 2001 9:48 am

In my previous post i wrote left to left and right to right to preserve the phase: Sorry for that it's an error. You must read + to + and - (or ground) to -

This problem may occur when you plug your speaker, for the other it may occur when you make your own wires if you invert + and ground on a channel.

Sorry ...

urumuqi74 · Posted - Fri May 11, 2001 10:29 am

BVDD · Posted - Fri May 11, 2001 12:26 pm

You just made my point, perfectly.

beetle · Location: USA

BVDD, no pro worth his or her salt will invert one channel to try to improve the stereo.

Doing this may also wreck havoc on your finely crafted mix and create playback problems.

Sounds to me that if your mix doesn't sound brilliant, it's time to remix.

Graeme · Member Location: Spain

urumuqi74 · Posted - Sat May 12, 2001 1:59 pm

Aya, caramba!!!!! Who is keeping the score!

I suggest that we leave the thread as it is. Eriko had his answer I guess!

jonrose · Location: USA

Erik O. · Location: Denmark

Hi everybody.

I've run through this thread several times trying to figure out, why it left me with such mixed feelings. Soon I found that if I split the posters into 3 groups, things became much more clear.

The first group would be : Yoshi, Rogier, Jim Love, John D, BVD, Greg, Sparky, Teddy G, Mtotton, Vincent and Jonrose.
These are the ones I would like to thank for taking there time sharing their ideas and experience - you guys obviously read my original post and responded to it. That should be the spirit of this forum - thanks a lot, all.

The second group : Robert M, Chiefgunner and DVDD. Their postings simply don't make any sence to me at all.

That leaves a third group of 3 posters: Graeme, Beetle and urumuqi74 (now the fun begins).

Graeme, who are you to judge other peoples suggestions when all you come up with is general terms like "all it takes is experience" and so on. My grandmother could say that - and what am I supposed to do with an answer like that ? In principle you could answer any question that way. Some forum that would be, huh ? Btw, if you consider me as a poor slob, why do you even bother posting in this thread anyway?
I can see in other threads that you have a lot of knowledge and that you are willing to share it. If you don't want to share it with me, that's cool. If you do, then don't give that "I spend all those years in a studio…" and all that - I can't use that. Don't tell it, show it.

Beetle, just how many tracks of music did you ever record yourself ? I think I remember you mention somewhere that you where about to begin making your own music in the near future. I may remember this wrong, but if I don't, then what do you mean when you say that you "learned by listening to the more experienced" ? Did you learn something that relates to the question I asked ? What I'm saying is you are not responding to the actual question, you're merely serving some overall stock phrases that is impossible to relate to.

urumuqi74, allow me to quote : " Who's sleeping here? The original post was refering to have a mixdown sounding as good as Paul Simon and so... ". Is my english really that hopeless ? If you read the original post once more, would the essence that you get from it still be that I want my mix sounding as good as Paul Simon ?

Now, I'm not the least interested in a long, endless, garbage-throwing, negative follow of this. If anyone respond, I'll read it and maybe hit the reply button a few times.
I just wanted to express my irritation at this inside arrogance that characterized the last 3 posters, and that's it.

Peace and love and a suitable amount of money for all,

Erik.

beetle · Location: USA

Erik O.,

You sound like you have a bad temper and don't take advice very well. if you ever work as an engineer for other people, these are not good qualities to have.

None of us three you have criticized were trying to be insulting. What I was trying to get across is that Sparky's idea was not a good one but you don't want to accept that. This ain't no love fest.

Look, if you ask a question you should be prepared to get an answer you don't like. If you don't want an answer, don't ask the question.

I learned by experimentation. It's the best way to learn anything. I also sought the advice of industry pros who do this stuff every day. Yes, I e-mail and talk with some by phone.

I'm not an authoritative type of person but at least I know when to listen, even when I don't like the answer.

Edited by - beetle on 05/13/2001 11:38:10 AM

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

Hi Erik

I've just read the whole thread, and whilst there are certainly some good ideas for you to try, I'd like to suggest one or two more.

Those of us who have been fortunate enough to have been able to dissect multi-track recordings that sound as good as some of Paul Simon's do will tell you that the qualities that you are looking for have got more than a little to do with compression and limiting. It's a BIG subject, but I can certainly give you a few starting hints here.

For a start, you need to get INDIVIDUAL TRACKS sounding good and smooth on their own. Start with tracks as 'dry' as you can get them and limit any really bad peaks. How? To begin with, you probably need to get the top 5-6dB of each track squashed down to about 1-2dB. This is only a starting figure - it varies widely with individual tracks, especially vocals, which always seem to need treatment. Compression is a little harder to get right, as you have to be careful not to take all the life (dynamic range) out of the track and bring up the noise level. You have to experiment a lot with settings, but after a while you will get an ear for what's going on. Incidentally, you mentioned that your cassette recording 'accidentally' sounded good. That's because all audio tape has a built-in mechanism which has a very similar effect to a compresser/limiter when you record it at moderately high levels. Especially cassettes. (It's all to do with magnetic saturation of the tape - any decent audio textbook will explain it.)

Anyway, if you want to add other spatial effects to an individual track, you can, but listen carefully to the results, and be prepared to go through the whole process again. Effects added to a compressed/limited track often stand out more than untreated ones - you may need less than you think. As for time-based (temporal) effects, delay is fine at this stage, but try to resist the desire to add reverb, if you can...

When you've got your individual tracks sorted out, you can position them in the soundfield. You might find at this stage that you've got tracks 'masking' each other, and it may not just be the panning that's a problem. As well as their own 'physical' space, most tracks need their own 'frequency' space to occupy as well, so you might find yourself eq-ing individual tracks to give others enough space to exist in the audio spectrum.

By now, you should be getting a good idea of the relative levels and position of each track, and hopefully the mix is starting to come together. This is often the point where you will need to apply a little overall reverb, and quite possibly a multi-band compressor to your mix, especially for radio. This will get the overall levels higher, hopefully without the bass and drums punching the rest of the track's levels up and down. You don't usually need too much of this, either - you should have got the sound pretty much right earlier in the mix. Quite often this is the 'magic fairy dust' element that gets added at the mastering stage, often with a judicious bit of final eq.

A couple of other things; If you feel that you need to use an enhancer, then try adding it to individual tracks, not the mix, and remember that 'less is definitely more' with them. The other thing is drums. They can be complete buggers to get right. It's often worth doing a complete submix of them on their own (using the same principles as above). Then add the bass. Then do everything else.

So the clue to your 'string line' effect is that every sound must be defined within its own space in time, position and frequency, and you have to get them right individually.

Finally, (for everybody else) I KNOW that there are loads of other ways to do mixes, and that everybody has their own little tricks that work for them. But everybody has to start somewhere, and the procedures that I've outlined are pretty basic. When you've learned the rules, however painfully, you can start to break them AND KNOW WHY!

I hope that this is some help...

Steve G.

Edited by - SteveG on 05/14/2001 01:03:34 AM

Graeme · Member Location: Spain

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

One of the reasons for the basic primer was this:

invader9000 · Posted - Mon May 14, 2001 3:26 am

beeing a total inexperienced in mixing (i am trying to learn now by using Cool Edit), and if i were Sparky, i would simply screw the whole thing and find an answer in another forum, where i would just have some respect. We don't need any wise guys here. We must consider that this forum is open to everyone, from pro to newbie, and every answer that is not correct, should be mentioned and corrected, without any bad comments for the poster. Graeme here, may be a professional, others are not. But i agree with him, and with others that said experience is the key to success. When you have to mix, the common thing that you have with ALL the engineers in this world is just the individual tracks, recorded and stored.

After that point, everything is up to the engineer to make a wonderful mix, or a just good one, or even a bad mix. Not all pros are good, and since there is no common rule for the mix, that should be understandable from all of you.

Also, i am willing to start mixing with SteveG's suggestions, which i believe will give some good results.

And a last thing: Don't kill the bad mixers, they will learn from their mistakes.

Make music, not war!
John.

urumuqi74 · Posted - Mon May 14, 2001 5:54 am

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom

A couple of things as a follow-up:
I checked out Steinberg's plugins page which has a ton of stuff listed - no, not just VST, but DX that you can use with CEP (or CE2000). They've done quite a good trawl of what's available, and there are plenty of mastering tools listed. Page is at

http://www.steinberg.net/infocenter/discoveries/pluginzone/chart.phtml?sid=02468076

Looking around one or two of the links, like dB for instance, reveals that you can get some very powerful tools for not a lot of bread. Well, cheaper than I thought you could, anyway.

The other thing that I should have included in the basic primer was a quick reminder of some of the basic rules for tracklaying, which are relevant to this topic if you are recording live musicians. So,

Use the best (most appropriate) mics you can, and if you are using a mixer, get the gain structure right. (channel fader at 0dB, set level with mic gain control)

Get the sound as good as you can by optimising the mic positions BEFORE you use any eq. Ideally, use NO eq. when recording. Don't rely on 'fixing it in the mix' - it ALWAYS sounds better when it's fixed at source. There's loads more to this topic than I can put in here - check it out.

Finally, I'm quite amazed at the number of people who have read this thread. More than any other thread on any Syntrillium forum, in fact. Personally, I think this is due to Erik's use of the word 'secret' in the title. The only other thread that gets close is Jeremy's demand that we all tell him how fast our PCs go. I'm not joining in with that one - it's too embarrassing...

Steve G

Edited by - SteveG on 05/14/2001 08:10:51 AM

RobertM · Posted - Mon May 14, 2001 9:32 am

Erik, sorry my note was confusing to you. Possibly it is because my comment was not intended, in any way, to address your posting, but, rather, it addressed our collective membership within this forum. Permit me to translate:

BVDD · Posted - Mon May 14, 2001 1:32 pm

"BVDD, no pro worth his or her salt will invert one channel to try to improve the stereo.
Doing this may also wreck havoc on your finely crafted mix and create playback problems.
Sounds to me that if your mix doesn't sound brilliant, it's time to remix."

beetle,
I totally agree with you .. no PRO would
do that. But the fact is Erik O. is just learning and what's more, he's describing
his listening experience as something unique
and intangible. It's up to us (if we want to help) to try and understand what he means .. and it's not easy as we've seen.
My defense of Sparky's "non-professional"
suggestion does not agree with him, I'm simply saying there are 100 better ways to
steer Erik away from Sparky's advice without
having to trash him. People don't "EARN THE
RIGHT" to be A-holes just because they know more than you.
That attitude has no place in a wonderful
forum like this.

beetle · Location: USA

I wasn't trashing Sparky! perhaps it was the way in which I worded my reply?

I took issue with Erik O.'s additude.

Graeme · Member Location: Spain

BVDD

If anyone trached Sparky, it was me! But I'm not going to apologise for that fact. In my view, the advice being given was not good, particularly when it was directed towards someone who was, admittedly, inexperienced.

And I don't really think I was particularly hard on Sparky, anyway. If you recall my comment was;

"Now this is just the sort of silly advice which should not be given to someone who is inexperienced!"

Hardly a "trashing" - just a direct and honestly felt comment.

Anyway, I think we have all spent more than enough time on this particular subject. If people don't like some of the things I say, or the way I say them, then so be it. I don't hang around this forum for my personal benefit, but to try and assist others in the areas I know something about.

They can take my advice or ignore it - that's their choice - but just remember that no one is sending an invoice for a consultation fee, so to complain about something one is getting for free seems the height of bad manners to me.

urumuqi74 · Posted - Mon May 14, 2001 5:42 pm

BVDD · Posted - Tue May 15, 2001 8:59 am

beetle,
I wasn't refering to you.

from Graeme:
"I don't feel particularly insecure and I can assure you that I am far from stupid.
More to the point, after some 30 odd years in this industry, as a music recording engineer, dubbing mixer, producer, studio designer and owner, etc. etc., I think I am reasonably qualified to trash a really stupid suggestion.
Furthermore, to offer such a silly idea up to someone who is obviously inexperienced was nothing short of criminal."

Graeme, these are your own words ..want to
tell us again that you're not TRASHING ?

"CRIMINAL" ?? Give me a break.

If you and urumugi74 really think this is healthy and friendly dialogue, and that using
"A-hole" to describe that attitude is not fair, then what's left? Maybe you guys need
someone who's as rich and famous as Paul Simon or Pink Floyd to treat you the same way
you treated Sparky .. you know .. embarrass
and belittle you with their lofty postition and knowledge. Would you get the point then?

I realize I'm arguing against some of the more prominent posters here, and you guys
seem quite annoyed that anyone dare challenge
you ..let alone a new guy with no friends.
The sad part is we're not bantering with constructive technical ideas.

If you are as good as you think you are
then you never have to say it, nor do you ever have to "BEST" somebody to prove it.
If you do, then you are insecure (like I said before)and it's stupid (also like I said before) if you think most people cannot easily see it.

urumuqi74 · Posted - Tue May 15, 2001 11:47 am

beetle · Location: USA

Yes, this thread is becoming pointless.

The minute Erik decided to attack everyone personally the tread lost it's value.

Edited by - beetle on 05/15/2001 12:48:55 PM

Graeme · Member Location: Spain

BVDD

Why don't you quit while you're ahead (not that you are, or will ever be).

jonrose · Location: USA

And no "D.C. al Coda" on this one, I hope.

;-)

PapillonIrl · Posted - Wed May 16, 2001 4:56 am

I just have to add my opinion to all this, I'm sorry if it insults anyone...there is something of a revolution going on in the world of recording as far as I can see which is bringing the price of home studios down to the level of alot of talented people who would otherwise never get the chance to experiment and develop their talents. The sheer amount and quality of information available to train yourself in this complex and highly skilled area has also increased on an incredible scale. This Forum being an excellent example. Graeme, BVD, Beetle, urumuqi, SteveG, Jonrose...advice all of you have posted on this Forum has not only helped me immensely; but a large circle of my friends, who are musicians,songwriters,singers etc. to improve their knowledge about this technology and increase their motivation to bring their talents to the next level. Look at the amount of people who are members of this Forum compared to the amount who post...somehow I feel that their are alot of people in my position, and your experience and knowledge is reaching them and their friends...and so on.

To me this all seems incredibly positive and you are to be commended on the time and effort you take to contribute.

It also seems to me that any effort you make to correct a bad piece of advice, is also above and beyond the call of duty and the best reply you can make to anyone arguing with that is...none.

Don't waste your time and knowledge by letting this Forum turn into an non-constructive argument.

Not that I've made any queries or points here relating to CE but I hope you know what I mean.

Peace
Pap.

Edited by - PapillonIrl on 05/16/2001 04:59:09 AM

BVDD · Posted - Wed May 16, 2001 9:18 am

I'd bet a dollar that you DON'T leave this
thread, Graeme .. because your arrogance compels you to have the last word and put people in their places.

Look, what is the WORST that could happen if
Erik O. tried Sparky's suggestion? ...
HE WOULD DISCOVER THAT HE DIDN'T LIKE THE RESULT, CLICK UNDO, AND MOVE ON TO TRY OTHER THINGS. And he might even discover that he
ENJOYED the effect and wanted to use it in other projects.

Yeah .. THAT'S REALLY CRIMINAL .. a guy actually learns something from his own
experimentation.

You're right ..that'll REALLY screw him up for life.

Oh, I forgot .. you can't answer because you
left.

golden_monkey · Posted - Wed May 16, 2001 9:31 am

BVDD · Posted - Wed May 16, 2001 9:33 am

Wow, you sure told me.

jonrose · Location: USA

BVDD · Posted - Wed May 16, 2001 11:25 am

Thank you Jon,
If the response was as simple, friendly,
and informative as yours in the first place,
we could have avoided all this .. and both
Erik O. and Sparky would have been satisfied too.

beetle · Location: USA

Syntrillium M.D. · Location: USA

And with that, let's bid this topic adieu...

Thanks for the comments.

Now on to [happier] recording.

---Syntrillium Support