Musings on a mobile recording setup.

Afaik 1HU servers being plain loud. The desktop is already a bit too loud really and I fear pulling cooling air through a 1HU rack will be far worse. On the other hand it won't be running full tilt just pulling a bit of audio in so maybe underclocking and letting it run a bit hot could be an option.

When we tried to find rack mount 1HU PC's for broadcasting, we failed. They were all far too noisy.

Once one accepts that until and/or unless one reaches the point of access to the semi-trailer + crew (which introduces a new extended set of issue), plus being able to request with a straight face $10k plus points/track all mobile options are quantum intersections of  bad compromises . . . one can get down to effort of establishing flawed but functional logistic/ergonomic designs. In my experience there is very little intersection for dynamic let along casual practitioners.  The market, whether gratis or commercially remunerated, is always in violent flux . . . flux fueled by fashion as much as technology.  I had a medically enforced hiatus of about two years and trying to regain any revenue traction might well be impossible.

that said.  Alesis 24HD (particularly XR) convertors are 'ok' enough to not be a concern (function not fashion).  even when the fan is replaced the unit is noisy and better then adequate cooling remains an important variable to reduce 'mean failure time'.  A unit (with a little used bck/up for when) is still (and has been since 06 or 07 when I more or less despaired over any significant improvements in general consumer OS/hrdwr/sftwr systems).  The basic unit (which as been slightly modified several times) probably has less then a thousand hours but is somewhere in that neighborhood.

While I have not deployed 1Urack server for several years one in conjunction with some creative Visual monitoring, remote keyboards, a F/W MOTU interface (with 20ft umbilical) was functional . . . in studios that box could sit in guitar cabinet room with monitor, keyboard, interface in Live room (or control room) . . . not so much different from the 'is it rolling, Bob?' tape machine down the hall. positioning it, cooling it in remote sessions is not particularly more difficult.

While the guy I would have used to modify the basic devise died before I could afford to have him execute the modifications conjunction of a Zoom R16 (or R24) and lunch box (configured for specific session) is both highly portable and works well.  Generally I still edit/mix via desktop system but except for the experiments in turning around any of the first 3 sets to sell prior to venue closing I would in any case.  Absent demands of fashionable but not, generally, required poorly written plug ins CPU and/or disk load for audio work is not a critical stressor.  I have three XP systems with single processors that are still very useful that are more then a decade old. Have three dual processor systems old enough that they have no extrinsic value that pose no significant obstacle  l for audio mixing and/or editing (that is I can mix efficiently more tracks then I can manage mentally . . . but that will be an individual variable)

http://ringbreak.dnd.utwente.nl/~mrjb/hd24tools/manual/HD24tools works for PC, Mac and I think with 'jack' under Linux.  transferring tracks does not require the relatively expensive fireport . . . and hardware device into which it is individually convenient to plug in the drive will work.  There are caddies that accept SATA and/or SSD drives.  The process is not as 'simple' as transferring from a 32 bit SD flash drive but it's simple enough that I could not quote the specific steps without reviewing the manual.  (of course I've transferred close to a thousand hours of audio so I no longer remember what it was like to not know how to do it . . . but I certainly do not see 'that' as a reason to discount the Alesis . . . that is out of print and no longer supported is a reason . . . but a working non XR version should be able to found for only slightly more then full retail on a Zoom R24)

If I were currently in the market for the 'next' hardware I would probably opt for RME UFX (neighborhood of $2k) f/w, USB direct to flash recording . . . in neighborhood of 24 channels . . . if one is doing this commercially it is probably an easy device for which to budget (if not purchase).  and theoretically anything that is going to address the remote recording 'market' needs to address how it is superior to the UFX . . . in my current opinion (which will change as the market changes) it is the 'benchmark' of minimal functionality that at this point the Joeco does not appear it will ever be.

main point is that there are relatively affordable options . . . with primary critical variables being personal ergonomics

If I were currently in the market for the 'next' hardware I would probably opt for RME UFX (neighborhood of $2k) f/w, USB direct to flash recording . . . in neighborhood of 24 channels . . . if one is doing this commercially it is probably an easy device for which to budget (if not purchase).  and theoretically anything that is going to address the remote recording 'market' needs to address how it is superior to the UFX . . . in my current opinion (which will change as the market changes) it is the 'benchmark' of minimal functionality that at this point the Joeco does not appear it will ever be.

I should have mentioned that the track on the other thread that I recorded went straight to a Fireface UFX via an ADI 192 DD to convert three lots of AES to ADAT. You've considerably underestimated the number of channels it records though - it's up to 60 via the USB port. And yes it will do it, although I got bored and haven't tested it beyond 40, where the SSD was ticking over quite nicely, and nowhere near out of steam...

The system is transparent. The quality of signals using it the way I did for that recording is determined entirely by the DSF1 mic control unit. The only analogue output on that is the headphone output - everything else is AES digital. If you record on the UFX via the mic pre's, the results are equally impressive - this is a classy box, whatever you compare it to.

Thanks for all the info, this is really why I keep coming to this forum. The incredible knowledge of its members whatever crazy situation turns up.

I'm working slowly on the numbers (money) side of this:

Once one accepts that until and/or unless one reaches the point of access to the semi-trailer + crew (which introduces a new extended set of issue), plus being able to request with a straight face $10k plus points/track all mobile options are quantum intersections of  bad compromises...

I'm sitting here already on a lot of unused (or badly underused) gear. That is why I'm reluctant to add a DR-680 to the lot.

So if I take a look at the options again:

- laptop: a new laptop or new interface would cost as much as the other options and consist of a lot of boxes and less optimal ergonomics.

- 1HU pc: a secondhand rack server, some hd's and an 8 input mic preamp looks for the moment a good idea. But the cost of decent mic preamps is a problem. Compared to what you get in the DR-680 you need to spend a lot more to get the same. And then you have only the mic preamps. Good points for this setup would be that I could use some gear lying around and use the rig for transfering LP's when not recording. which is about 99% of the time. Only real advantage is that I could easily start with 2 mic inputs because I don't have more mics at the moment.

- dedicated recording gear: the HD24 isn't an option. It needs a micpreamp like the previous setup and cost is comparable as well. It wins on ergonomics, (probably) reliability but looses on flexibility (just as heavy, needs another pc after the recording and cannot be reused for other uses if needed). But the DR-680 looks like a good thing. It is affordable and brings usable mic preamps and features in a single package. Only problem I have with it that it's going to be used not more than 3 evenings in a year. But the other solutions might get used even less due to being unwieldly.

On another note, does anyone knows this product: http://www.directout.eu/en/products/exbox.uma.html
I hadn't even heard of the company but the have some peculiar equipment.

While pricing out some components for the 1HU pc solution I think I hit the snag in this option: weight. And lots of it. Found a nice 1HU screen/keyboard tray but that is 12 kg. A 1HU server ticks 14 kg on the scales. Don't know what the ADI weighs but it won't be less than 3kg, add again that for a mic preamp and the 4hu rack bag. Total won't be far off 30-35 kg. While it can be called transportable it isn't mobile.

I could probably search around for lighter alternatives like alu racks, use a mini-ITX, some bare lcd screen etc. While that could be mobile it would probably not stand up to even casual use. If you're short on time it the gear tends to suffer.

So that leaves the DR-680 as the only sensible option. Unless someone has a better idea along that line I think that settles it.

So that leaves the DR-680 as the only sensible option. Unless someone has a better idea along that line I think that settles it.

That probably is the right thing to do.

The only alternative I can think of at all is to sell as much stuff as you can, and buy the (slightly over your budget, which is why I didn't suggest it) Fireface UFX. It's a 1U rack panel, only weighs 3kg, and would mean that you get 4 excellent mic pre's, direct to USB recording and also you could connect direct (via the other USB) to a laptop for backup. Stick it in the smallest flightcase you can get, and put the laptop on top of it. The only thing it won't do without an external preamp is cope with your record deck. After you've listened to its replay quality, there's probably relatively little that you'd be happy to go back to afterwards (although E-mu's 1820m still sounds pretty good...)

As for DirectOut - I looked at their products whilst researching AES to ADAT, but they hadn't got anything suitable; they seem to be heavily into MADI. When I was offered the ADI 192 DD, used about once, for half price, it seemed stupid not to have it. So I stopped looking at all at that point!

I could probably search around for lighter alternatives like alu racks, use a mini-ITX, some bare lcd screen etc.

If you are into cobbling something together yourself I sometimes wonder whether you could hide one of these

http://www.bvm-store.com/ProductDetail.asp?fdProductId=733

inside a rack mount interface. I've used one for logging high definition raw photos and they're surprisingly cheap.

James.

Yes, I looked at mini-itx products and came across the pico-itx ones. But the problem is that when you put everything together it is just as expensive as a secondhand 1HU server with 2 dual core cpu's and 8GB ram. By the time you added the rack it's even more expensive! Probably a lot less loud and a bit lighter but far less powerfull as well. If you start to put it together with a bare lcd panel etc it isn't cheaper anymore than a good second hand laptop. But that laptop is probably better put together and more powerfull. So why bother?

I do have a mini-itx under my desk...use it as a footrest. Has a Creamware Pulsar in it! Another of those purchases that didn't get used. I had put that aside for the reverb for the organ. Maybe with an SSD it might be an option I hadn't considered.

Now it could be argued that you could put something like a DR-680 together with such a pico-itx, a small screen and a decent usb interface, add some electronics for psu and mic-preamp and slap a slim linux on it. No doubt I could do that, the question should I do it? It would be a decent project in its own way. If I didn't have already several dozen projects going I'd be tempted. (I realise I never should have written this paragraph... )

The only alternative I can think of at all is to sell as much stuff as you can, and buy the (slightly over your budget, which is why I didn't suggest it) Fireface UFX. It's a 1U rack panel, only weighs 3kg, and would mean that you get 4 excellent mic pre's, direct to USB recording and also you could connect direct (via the other USB) to a laptop for backup. Stick it in the smallest flightcase you can get, and put the laptop on top of it. The only thing it won't do without an external preamp is cope with your record deck.

Well, I have no idea what such a sell would raise but after reading it a bit better it could indeed replace every other device in my setup (both fixed and mobile):
- replace the RME digi9652+ADI that sits now with the desktop
- replace the FA66 with the laptop
- replace the DA-P1 (and here it would be a serious technical upgrade but portable downgrade)
- replace the Symetrix mic preamp as it has directly 4 mic inputs

And it would not just be a replacement but a serious upgrade. It doesn't have a battery option but with the DR-680 that looks an aftertougth anyway. It has its price but it isn't more expensive than that Pulsar that was never used to record anything was. And taking inflation into account it is even cheaper. Only downside I see is that there is no linux drivers yet, but it is planned (and information is already with them). So it isn't a blocking issue, just have to transfer with a HD to the pc. That wouldn't be different with a DR-680.

Recording the deck isn't an issue. Right now the riaa preamp is permanently connected to the ADI. The problem is that because it is also the general purpose pc I rarely record anything because once seated behind it there are to many distractions. A separate pc might give that department a boost.

In the spec it says that the Fireface UFX consumes 22W - ie, not a lot, although this would go up a bit if you connected a SSD to the USB port, I think. I haven't timed it, but as far as I can see it would keep going for a long time on the UPS that I always run it from... and with modern inverters, it wouldn't be too difficult to create a custom power supply for it if you wanted to, I would have thought.

Yes, but then it would become another project, wouldn't it?

That's a real problem when you're a bit technical. Everything is an opportunity to re-invent the wheel. Only, if you sit down and think about it:
- it doesn't save money
- it doesn't gain time
- it isn't easier
- it can be really frustrating
- if you miss a piece of gear to check the correct working, it will never give you satisfaction

One of the things I'd like to make is a set of good mic preamps. Because they cost a lot of money and the basic electronics aren't that hard/expensive. And in a way it is perfectly possible to do so. Until you realise that you probably need more than a couple of prototypes before it works as intended. If you need to check if you have a decent noise performance you need an even far better measuring setup. And that last will cost you probably more than the double of whatever number of channels you think you need. Just making a setup for measuring noise at -110dB and making sure what you measure is what you intend to measure is a serious undertaking.

At such a point you need to sit down and think what is the goal of it all. It is all fine if your hobby is to make electronics because you won't have the time to record anything. (or it will al be in pieces when you want to record) I did the same when looking for a pipe organ. In theory it is a simple thing to make. But you need to consider if you want to build one, or if you want one to play on it.

I'm slowly coming to an age when you realise that you don't need to make everything yourself. (still a good way to go!) And I'm starting to realise that even if you can do it, there isn't always a good reason to do it.

PS: 22W + 5W for the HD + 2W for a little light = 30W. Trow in some loss and spare and you look at 35W to power. If you go 12V battery power then you'll need 6Ah for each hour you record. A 12V-12Ah lead acid battery is 4kg and then you need a convertor. And hopefully no filter to get the noise of the convertor out. Heavy, but compared to a 14kg 1HU pc not a bad solution either.

One of the things I'd like to make is a set of good mic preamps. Because they cost a lot of money and the basic electronics aren't that hard/expensive. And in a way it is perfectly possible to do so. Until you realise that you probably need more than a couple of prototypes before it works as intended. If you need to check if you have a decent noise performance you need an even far better measuring setup. And that last will cost you probably more than the double of whatever number of channels you think you need. Just making a setup for measuring noise at -110dB and making sure what you measure is what you intend to measure is a serious undertaking.

Been there, done that. I used to build them in pairs, and eventually they got good enough to use. And then I picked up an absolute bargain (Audient ASP008, fully loaded), and haven't used any of mine for ages!

The only way that you can realistically look at making mic preamps is to do it because you want to, rather than need to - because by and large you don't need to.

There are some things that I'll always make though - the prime candidate here being mic leads; I don't recall ever buying a mic lead in my entire life - with the exception of the Soundfield ones, I suppose, but they're buggers to make if you have to do your own.

The only way that you can realistically look at making mic preamps is to do it because you want to, rather than need to - because by and large you don't need to.

Agreed, and same for mic leads here: got a reel of 100m cable and a bag of XLR's. Don't know about soundfiel mics but as long as it aren't 7 pin Lemo OB size it should be fine...

Don't know about soundfield mics but as long as it aren't 7 pin Lemo OB size it should be fine...

Oh, no it's nothing like that - it's a mini 12-pin  Lemo!

Got it. That 7-pin lemo got me almost trowing everything out of the window.

I still don't get it why those bargains you always seem to find never come my way.

I still don't get it why those bargains you always seem to find never come my way.

Actually, you've explained it very well, perhaps without realising it. I look for them actively when I want something like that - they don't find me. If I didn't do that, I'd have the same luck as everybody else, I think.

As far as the Audient is concerned, there's a thread about it from when I got it, back in 2006, here. Good firm, Audient!

Back from an extended trip I find the discussion around a theme I started for myself some 2 years ago. My personal goal was to abandon carrying PC’s, peripherals, mixers and converters for location recording, which is heavy stuff. While my favourite was an SD788 which I could borrow from a friend for some occasions, this was far out of my budget but absolutely convenient with respect to application.

My  choice finally was the TASCAM DR-680 which is lightweight and easy to carry and comes close to the SD788 except some very sophisticated features such as delays and other complex possibilities. A good perspective is also to use 2 devices in tandem offering a total of 12 analogue microphone inputs which lasts for most arrangements.

In fact, the DR-680 filled my expectations except one very important point: It turned out that the microphone inputs suffered from an additional noise contribution of 9 ... 13 dB as soon as the internal phantom power supply is turned on. As this seemed to be an individual error first, eventually it was confirmed that all devices have the same error. Thus it is systematic and reduces performance considerably, as today almost all recordings are based on condensers. Possibly the figure may lower with older microphone types with transformer output. All other types suffer from a waterfall like noise in the background which makes all recording almost impossible except for heavy metal.

In between, the cause has been spotted after a lengthy period of discussion and consulting with the European representative and I own now the first item that has been modified according to my specifications. With the modification that includes 6 additional capacitors the DR-680 equals in performance with the use of a low noise external supply, and the input section is now of high quality.

There is no decision from TASCAM, how this modification is offered to the customers, former and future. Since I have specified the modifications based on the circuit diagram, I am willing to provide this on request by a personal mail. The problem is to find space to include the additional components in the heavy packed case as I have not opened any device by myself – this would void my warranty.

To prove the performance I include 2 samples recorded with the external supply. The piano recording proves the noise behaviour (there is only acoustical noise from the audience) while the Jazz recording proves the good transient behaviour of the microphone amplifiers. (There is also some MS-Processing). However, the *.mp3 conversion audibly reduces the original transparency of the drum transients.