Near Coincident Mics - phase problems?

Well, we now have an H2 in the house as well. I didn't buy it, but one of my sons did, after listening to ozpeter's dog walk. Incidentally, I played it back using my Adam P11s with the accompanying sub, and at the point where the car door shuts, it got 'interesting'...

What the significance of this is, I have no idea... I must admit that I'm somewhat mystified as to what he wants it for - maybe I'll find out soon. This might be interesting!

I hope that didn't require you to reach into your own pocket, Steve!

Did I post these links already?

http://www.radio.uqam.ca/ambisonic/comparative_recording.html

- which is an account of the H2 in some interesting company...

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/22/1451533/One%20minute%20skin.mp3

- which is a 4ch H2 studio music recording one-minute mp3 excerpt post-processed (I just stuck it on a stand in the middle of a studio being used for a live broadcast and left it to its own devices)

http://www.2090.org/zoom/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=9745&start=0

- which has everything I know about the H2 in post #1

And tomorrow I'm hoping to dangle the H2 under my Sennheiser MS pair in this City's premiere hall which will be packed to the roof for a concert by a certain fine English Abbey choir, with grand organ and chamber organ.  I'll have it in 4 channel mode again (a stereo pair for front and rear) and that will make a very interesting test recording. 

I hope that didn't require you to reach into your own pocket, Steve!

No, but I may have to repair the cracked plaster... (only joking, but there was quite a good 'whoomph' when the door shut - can't complain too much about the bass transient response!)

And tomorrow I'm hoping to dangle the H2 under my Sennheiser MS pair in this City's premiere hall which will be packed to the roof for a concert by a certain fine English Abbey choir, with grand organ and chamber organ.  I'll have it in 4 channel mode again (a stereo pair for front and rear) and that will make a very interesting test recording. 

And I still want to know how on earth you are going to control it. We also now know that you can use it as a direct USB interface - but with a strange limitation, as ASIO4ALL has the USB input as 'beyond logic', although the output is fine. I have to say that it works a treat with AA1.5 though, and fortunately for its owner it's okay with Reaper as well. Apparently an ASIO driver is on the cards, but it hasn't shown up yet. Oh, and the on-board display is crap - indications you need to see almost disappear off the LHS of it. Oh, and as a direct interface, it's only 16 bit of course.

I'll just set it running just before the audience come in - its default level settings are well chosen - it'll run at 16/44.1 for three hours or so uninterrupted.  Winching it down to start it is easy - all hall systems are automated electric winches etc. - better than London when I left!

As anticipated last night I recorded an excellent choir with organ in a 3500 seat (sold out) hall, and was able to suspend my H2 beneath the main stereo pair high above the front rows of the audience and make a test recording to compare with the "real" one.

I've spent a little time this morning working on getting the best from the H2 recording without so far comparing it to that from the main Sennheiser MKH series MS setup, but unless my ears are deceiving me, it's possible to get a very acceptable sound from it - I'm pretty gobsmacked actually.  Even the organ solo items sound not bad at all.  I'm not particularly fussed about the H2's "out of the box" sound, so long as it's possible to play around with front/back levels and widths, eq, reverb, and so forth, to obtain a good post-processed result from an original point-and-shoot recording.

What really impresses me is the way the Zoom designers have set up the gain structure.  I had no opportunity to check levels at all, so simply set the H2 to its default mid-position setting (you get a simple choice of high, medium and low gain), and the result is a recording which faithfully captures the general "silent" ambience of the hall before the audience came in (starting the H2 recording had to happen prior to it being winched high into the air before the concert), yet at the loudest peaks ("Zadok the Priest" or "I Was Glad"... for those that know English choral music) there was about 0.5dB headroom left.  And I could tell from the gains I was using on the "real" recording that the level at the mic was pretty much the loudest I'd expect it to encounter in normal use with non-amplified music.  I really could walk into a hall shortly before commencement of a recording with nothing but the H2 and the means to locate it at the sweet spot, and come away with a result which would be acceptable for FM broadcast.  I'm by no means saying that the result would be preferable to a conventionally made recording using far more costly and bulky gear, but would if time and resources were tight, the H2 would bear serious consideration as the tool to use.  And as a total system backup device, it bears thinking about too.

Samples will probably follow in this thread in a day or two.

Samples are now up -

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/22/1451533/Sampleone.mp3

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/22/1451533/Sampletwo.mp3

Neither uses audio compression but some general post-processing has been undertaken.  The Sennheiser recording has not been eq'd (you don't pay that price for a mic with a flat response and then mess with it!) but the H2 recording has been eq'd by ear to broadly match the Sennheisers.  Perhaps Harbal would have done the job better.  There is a few seconds of hall ambience at the start of each so you can judge hiss levels.

If you don't want to know in advance which is the Sennheiser recording and which is the Zoom H2 recording, don't look below here...

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The H2 is sample....
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1.

My goodness, if they started the concert with the Parry, how did they end it?  Nice to hear this -- we've been preparing our choir on it, but it won't have that lovely English soprano sound when we're done!

There's some interesting phasiness in both clips, but the amount of the lower mids in Clip 2 that cancels out when summed to mono doesn't seem right.

Bottom line: the H2 sounds decent, if with that narrowness that comes from hearing ambient-field sound from a single point.  Reminds me of my video camera, but without the nasty limiter, plus it's cleaner.  Of course, the Sennheisers (thank you for not EQing) have a better sense of the whole room and better realism all around.  But the H2 doesn't pale by comparison.

Oh Santa, where are you?  I have something to talk to you about...

Thank you, Peter!

Santa just got a letter from me... and I asked for this

http://www.zzounds.com/item--SNYPCMD50

I always wanted a PCMD1, but it was outside of my budget, at almost 4 x the cost of this new "baby" PCMD.

MC - that was the last work, apart from an encore - I'll PM you the programme as it was quite a treat!  (Trebles rather than sopranos, btw - no girls allowed!!).

Yeah, that new Sony recorder looks very promising, and I suspect its mic input will be much better than the Zoom's which is inexplicably naff, given the quality of the built in mics (its line in is fine).  But the great thing about the Zoom is the potential of the four mics - all sorts of things can be done, including 5.1 surround mixes as posted elsewhere on the net.  I just hate the flat sound of a plain crossed pair (personal thing, I concede).

If this is a right question to follow up with to ozpeter:
what is your Sennheiser MS pair setup?
I searched previous posts and found it's the MKS 30 figure-8 with an MKS 40 cardiod mounted on some kind of convenient coupler that can either hang or and mount on a stand well. With a Senn MS preamp? What are all the part numbers and how does it look?

thanks!

JJM

http://www.fransvaneeckhout.be/sennheiser/images/microfoons/mzd30.jpg holds the two mics in piggyback fashion and the whole thing clips into one of these - http://www.fransvaneeckhout.be/sennheiser/images/microfoons/mzs40.jpg - either on a mic stand or hung upside down.

Preamp is the MZA-MS1 - no longer available I think.

Sennheiser used to sell the Y cords for running the system through a cable with 5 pin XLR connectors - dunno whether they still do.

I'm surprised Google doesn't turn up an image of the actual pair on a stand or something.

Dear OP,

thanks for the photos. I hadn't thought about googling for pics of the combo but after a little work found
http://www.alanhames.co.uk/Images/MS-MICS.jpg !

More to ponder. I have the little Schoeps XY pair but I'm looking for an MS setup to use, too.

thanks!

JJM