Audio loudness, I don't get it.

 
...All of this is routinely done to exceed the digital limit in order to get the music louder.  The music is not really louder, it just sounds that way.  So, you think this sounds better?

Uh... no! That was the point of my post! Beetle, are you actually reading these posts? It seems as if you're not. You don't seem to realize you're preaching to the converted here.

What we have here, is a failure to communicate...

Chris

Maybe I missed something.  It is my job to read everything, though!

Hey, I probably am preaching to the converted, but it's an issue that gets me going because I am so sick of buying CDs that were "maximized" to the stratosphere and sacrifice sound quality.  It frustrates me even more when a newbie comes here or at the Synt forums and wants to know how to make his waves look like the ones he ripped from the latest CD by XXXXXX, or some guy wants to master his own stuff and automatically includes compression as one of the things he thinks he must do.

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not totally against the practice.  I do it myself at times, but I am very careful and never boost the volume with these means to the point of being obvious.

If you want to hear a good example of how the sound is damaged by moderate boosting with compression/limiting, compare a Chicago CD on Columbia or Chicago Records to the latest remasters on Rhino.  Terrible!  If Chicago isn't your bag, check out the limiting action on the recent AC/DC remasters.

Or listen to the Rush cataloq.  It goes from early release (sounding good) to the later releases that were "butchered" to the point of rendering them unlistenable!    

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not totally against the practice.  I do it myself at times, but I am very careful and never boost the volume with these means to the point of being obvious.
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Which is pretty much what I was saying. The question was: "what is too loud?" My thinking (and yours as well it seems) is: if it's obvious, you've gone too far.  

I think most of us here seem to agree that what's happening with mastering in major label land is pretty embarassing. Along these lines I have a kind of interesting tangential anecdote:

I have a buddy in Texas who just put out a self-released record, and for the first time, decided to shell out the bucks for a pro mastering job. He did a bunch of research, sought out a place that seemed consistant with his quality standards, and made it very explicit that he did *not* want the life squashed out of the mix, that he had no interest whatsoever in participating in the loudness wars, etc.

What he got back was a (largely) acoustic record that was mixed as if to compete with Johnny Tattoo's latest appeal to the teenyboppers - ie: compressed to death, pumping like a drunken sailor on shore leave, and audibly clipped all over the place.

Which points out a certain irony: namely that the standard line when some newbie starts asking questions about mastering is: "take it to a pro - don't do it yourself." But we all seem to agree that the major culprits in the sonic fiasco that currently dominates the trendoid top 40 world are... the mastering people (whether under pressure from others, or whatever...).

So the advice often handed out to newbies on mastering strikes me as kind of inconsistant. On one hand they're told: "take it to an ME." On the other hand: "90% of it sounds like dookie, and it's not the fault of the engineers, it's the *mastering*"

Or could it be that there are simply more engineers than MEs lurking on internet forums?

Chris

I hope your friend didn't have to pay them for a service not rendered the way he wanted.  I'm thinking the people he took his masters to were younger guys swo locked in with what
'everyone else" wants that they ran on auto pilot.  Your frind learned a valuble lesson.  Don't do business with anyone who will not listen to the client.

Just to be sure, the big-time guys (Ludwig, Katz, Irwin, Grundman) would love to master an album without having to maximize.  Steve Hoffman absoloutley won't!

Hi guys,
It's late in the evening, and I'm sleep-deprived.
As such, I haven't had a chance to read this whole thread yet, but having seen it, I wanted to post this link.
http://www.euphonicmasters.com/orban_article.html
This article was written by Frank Foti, Omnia Audio & Robert Orban, CRL/Orban.
It might scare off the newbies, 'cause it gets technical in parts, but it's well worth a read if you think you've ever got a chance of having your material played on commercial radio.
Good night all.

Or listen to the Rush cataloq.  It goes from early release (sounding good) to the later releases that were "butchered" to the point of rendering them unlistenable!    

Yeah, Rip Rowan used them as a great example of this trend.

Yes he did!  September 2002, ProRec.com ...

http://www.prorec.com/prorec/articles.nsf/articles/8A133F52D0FD71AB86256C2E005DAF1C

 

wow that was a really great article thanks guys!
I personally really like the amount of loudness on earlier/mid 90's cd's the best. Where there are LOUD GUITAR WALLS. I know it is pretty much white noise, but I am into that whole "shoegazer" sound. Funny thing is, I havent really ever made music like that yet

as my first post suggested, I didn't understand how other music sounded fuller without the use of huge loud waves... So, any other good articles or compression tips on getting the perfect punch without maximum using maximum compression?

as my first post suggested, I didn't understand how other music sounded fuller without the use of huge loud waves... So, any other good articles or compression tips on getting the perfect punch without maximum using maximum compression?

Remix!  

...pumping like a drunken sailor on shore leave...

Chris,
Great line! Love it.

As for my post from the other night with the link to the article on broadcast processing, my apologies if it seemed OT. As I mentioned at the time, I hadn't read this entire thread, and in my sleep deprived state at the time, it seemed appropriate.
I have now read this whole thread, and one thing I would like to throw in for guys like Ron who are struggling with the concept of multiband compression is this.... use slower attack times on your lower frequencies than you do on the higher frequencies.
Remember, lower frequencies have longer wavelengths, which means that attack times don't need to be as rapid as they do for higher frequencies. Too quick an attack time on low frequencies will cause distortion, while too slow an attack time on high frequencies will have the spikes getting through before the compressor kicks in.
Also (and I know this was mentioned ad nauseum over on the Synt forum, but I don't know if it's been brought up here yet), if you haven't already, download the mastering guide pdf from the iZotope website. Even if you don't have Ozone, it's a good primer on how to use multiband compressors.