A Loopology forum

My guess is Cal mis-interpreted the foaming-from-the-mouth argument of Williams, nobody said chicken fried steak would be found in the Polls forum or vice versa, but you will find the exact same questions in the CE2K forum as you do in the CEP forum and vice versa

Hmmm.... I checked back and have concluded that I pretty well *did* miss William's point specifically about the various versions of CEP/AA having similar content in each forum.  Yes --  Transform/Effect techniques are quite the same, although the multitrack portions can have some differences.

My apologies for lumping others in with these too.  No need to muddle the puddle.

The first time I've visited the CE2k forum in a long while, I see:
Can I stretch an ending chord
Good sounding mono
A couple of DC offset questions
Reverb or echo chamber
What order to apply transforms..

A quick estimate sais 2/3 of the posts there could easily be moved into a general CEP/AA forum.   The same is obviously true for the Audition forum until something is changed in the program.

You think I'm not aware of that? Why do you think I said "The comments also lead me to think that there may be another approach to this, anyway" above? We could cheerfully integrate all of the threads in there into the CEP forum without even noticing. And yes, until somebody makes AA significantly different from CEP, we could probably combine all three of the SW forums into one. But that really is about as far as it goes in that particular direction.
 
And all the arguments about people 'missing' things in forums that they 'aren't interested in' are rather inchoate. These people are suddenly going to wade through every post just because we put them all in one box? Get real! - they will soon find other reasons for not reading any threads at all, unless we make the thread content pretty obvious from the titles, and we all know how good people are at that, don't we? Why do you think I want people to put sensible titles on threads? Mainly so that people can avoid the threads they don't want to read, not the forums. I'm not claiming that the categorisation of the forums we've got is correct yet - I didn't invent it, and I've always proposed that it should be flexible and develop - and that doesn't mean grow in number.

Yes, we need forums. But not to stop people reading whole collections of threads - that argument just doesn't wash. I certainly think that the categorisation should probably be rather broader than it is at present - and this would inevitably lead to less forums, but structured along different lines.

And finally, William probably isn't in a minority of one.  I somewhat feel the same way, too many fora become a pain to look through.  With only 10 members interested enough in the forums structure/operation to comment about it, you can't really get a general idea on user opinions anyway.

You are forgetting (or choosing to ignore) the opinions that a lot of people expressed after they'd sampled the Adobe version of a forum. We have not got this completely wrong - which is why we still pick up membership from them.

What we don't want to do is to start changing everything overnight - because that really does hack people off - a lot of people feel very uncomfortable with any change other than that introduced by an 'incremental growth' policy. There is a long history of this being the most successful method of introducing change. Throwing away a structure that people are used to is no way forward at all.

You should remember that the reason that I started this thread at all was because I've given some serious thought to the structure of the AudioMasters forums - this thread was started because I wanted to know about the number of people interested in loopology specifically - it was not intended to be a soapbox about everything else. I only put it here because it had a poll attached - it shouldn't really be here at all. And yes, there are things to be said about that situation, too... but not here.

And all the arguments about people 'missing' things in forums that they 'aren't interested in' are rather inchoate. These people are suddenly going to wade through every post just because we put them all in one box? Get real! - they will soon find other reasons for not reading any threads at all

I don't expect people to suddenly trawl through the masses of posts that were made in the SW forums they didn't read, as though we had exposed a  rich vien of gold for them to explore by lumping all the forums into one.  Rather, when someone is looking how to make a decent reverb in AA I don't expect they would look specifically in the CEP forum when checking if their question has been asked before.  Also I wonder if when searching for previous posts on reverbs, would someone think it's not relavent to them because the search comes up with a post made in the CEP forum?

You are forgetting (or choosing to ignore) the opinions that a lot of people expressed after they'd sampled the Adobe version of a forum. We have not got this completely wrong - which is why we still pick up membership from them.

I thought the complaints (well, mine at least) were due to threads having the middle cut out by default, posts being in the wrong order and a design that made everything hard to read and navigate.  I didn't think the structure of forums was (as) much of an issue?

And all the arguments about people 'missing' things in forums that they 'aren't interested in' are rather inchoate. These people are suddenly going to wade through every post just because we put them all in one box? Get real! - they will soon find other reasons for not reading any threads at all

I don't expect people to suddenly trawl through the masses of posts that were made in the SW forums they didn't read, as though we had exposed a  rich vien of gold for them to explore by lumping all the forums into one.  Rather, when someone is looking how to make a decent reverb in AA I don't expect they would look specifically in the CEP forum when checking if their question has been asked before.  Also I wonder if when searching for previous posts on reverbs, would someone think it's not relavent to them because the search comes up with a post made in the CEP forum?

It's not a precise science - somebody's bound to be upset whatever you do. All that's really emerged, and we've known this for ages, is that the real clue to making this useful is in using accurate thread titles. Yes, it may well lead to the need to specify exactly which version of the SW that your wonderful reverb is meant to run with - that's yet another series of compromises that would have to be made.

You are forgetting (or choosing to ignore) the opinions that a lot of people expressed after they'd sampled the Adobe version of a forum. We have not got this completely wrong - which is why we still pick up membership from them.

I thought the complaints (well, mine at least) were due to threads having the middle cut out by default, posts being in the wrong order and a design that made everything hard to read and navigate.  I didn't think the structure of forums was (as) much of an issue?

You mean that all these things aren't part of the structure? I think that it's all of them, and possibly the structure too, that's an issue. The majority of what posts there are on the Adobe site seem to go into the Adobe Audition forum anyway - partly because the rest of the site just isn't really suited to being a forum.

Quickly read through it all. While I know that in theory, the 3 forums are equal and interchangeble, the headings imply they are not. I have before on other occasions voiced my opinion that those three should be knocked together. It makes far more sense to have forums titled "radio", "plugins", multi-track", "recording sessions", "mic use", "reverb and copression", "newbie" etc... Those labels at least tell you what it is about and let you make selections.

My way of visiting may be a bit extreme, but I do it that way because it saves time. This is not the only forum I visit, but I do it likewise at the others. Skipping sub-forums like "macs", "pro-tools" etc. If you don't know anything about it and cannot use it's info, there is no sense in reading it. I am already drowning in the info available as it is right now!! Just reading the posts that might be interesting (and replying when applicable) can take more than an hour for a round of surfing.

But the need for usable and informative post titles is a more important issue at the moment. This is sometimes a real pain. And this makes no difference if you are looking in the forums or the result of a search.

But the need for usable and informative post titles is a more important issue at the moment. This is sometimes a real pain. And this makes no difference if you are looking in the forums or the result of a search.

I think that this is the one thing about which everybody would agree - which is why we reserve the right to 'fix' them when appropriate.

I thought the complaints (well, mine at least) were due to threads having the middle cut out by default, posts being in the wrong order and a design that made everything hard to read and navigate.  I didn't think the structure of forums was (as) much of an issue?

You mean that all these things aren't part of the structure?

Yeah, font size and the color scheme is unrelated to how you group topics into forums

Consider the following examples, because my problem isn't just with the CE-AA forums ;

"properly coiling cables"
"speakers/headphones"
"a good cd labeling or cd-r product ?"
"telling right from left on an lp"

[/list:u]

And Now......

"the difference between LP and EP"
"Please check your loopology Cd's For...."
"What are some good snakes"
"testing for out of phase speakers"
"explain mastering plug-ins"
"nady microphones"
"sennhieser headphones"
"clear coating ink-jetted cdr's"

[/list:u]
And finally....

"cable for snakes"
"two new cd-r problems"
"vocal mic suggestions"
"using an oscilloscope"

[/list:u]

These are examples from respectively, the "OT", "General Audio", and "Hardware and Soundcards" Forums !

The problem isn't having lots of specific forum categories, the problem is that threads themselves, not just the titles, don't anywheres near adhere to them.

Virtually any one of these threads could go into any of the three categories. And after visiting one, it's an extreme pain to find it again.

It's a matter of efficiency, and logic. I'm not intrinsically opposed to more forums. I wouldn't mind seeing a "tips and tricks" or "faq" forum added, for example. But not with this existing inexplicable mess.

(And you'll note I purposely left out the CE and AA forums.)

And Steve, I'm getting rather tired of the snooty, rude, and arrogant offhanded comments. Along with the implication that 'whatever I say will promptly be ignored.'  I think they're unfair coming from someone in a position such as yours, and they've long worn thin. Are my observations really so strange or off-the-wall ? I'm willing to let go of what amounts to be my end-of-the-bone. I have nothing personally at stake here, and really, I was just trying to help. I was trying to offer an un-biased, objective, and educated point-of-view. And I'm not going to stop offering my two-cents on this issue because Steve Garnett doesn't happen to get it. Or like it. Or want it.

I don't mean to say that it's 'bad'. Just that it could be much better. And you disagree with that ?

I appreciate the time and effort the moderators and others put into this board in support of the AA/CE user community.  Personally, how this board is arranged is of very little importance to me as I do 99% of my reading from the NEW POSTS screen and generally ignore the forum that a message is posted in.

It does seem that the classification of messages may be problematic at times, but the shear number of posts is going to lead folks to search many times in order to find something.  Again, where a message is located becomes a non-issue.

Whether the messages are stored in one big stack or lots of little stacks doesn't much matter if there are tools available that will find information regardless of where or how it is stored.

If the folks who make this board tick like lots of little stacks, then that's fine with me.

Thanks folks!

Last time that I checked... The Audiomasters staff has done a pretty good job of keeping this forum clean and organized. We have a great "Recording showcase" area and our phpBB forum is far superior to anyone else in the CE/AA Game.  We will always try hard to be #1.  

There was an old man, a boy and a donkey. They were going to town and the boy was riding the donkey, with the old man walking alongside.

As they rambled along, they passed some old women sitting in the shade. One of the women called out, ''Shame on you, a great lump of a boy, riding while your old father is walking."

The man and boy decided that maybe the critics were right so they changed positions.

Later they ambled by a group of mothers watching their young children play by the river. One cried out in protest, "How could you make your little boy walk in the hot sun while you ride!"

The two travellers decided that maybe they both should walk.

Next they met some young men out for a stroll.

"How stupid you are to walk when you have a perfectly good donkey to ride!" one yelled derisively.


So both father and son clambered onto the donkey, deciding they both should ride.

They were soon settled and underway again. They next encountered some children who were on their way home from school.

One girl shouted, "How mean to put such a load on a poor little animal."

The old man and the boy saw no alternative. Maybe the critics were right. They now struggled to carry the donkey.

As they crossed a bridge, they lost their grip on the confused animal and he fell to his death in the river.

And the moral, of course, is that if you try to please everyone you will never know what to do, it will be hard to get anywhere, you will please no-one, not even yourself, and you will probably lose everything

[user]

Nice story. And unfortunatly true.

The problem isn't having lots of specific forum categories, the problem is that threads themselves, not just the titles, don't anywheres near adhere to them.

Virtually any one of these threads could go into any of the three categories. And after visiting one, it's an extreme pain to find it again.

Certainly if they are moved inbetween visits. Don't get your point here, both statements are a bit contradictory. But I think the first is the most applicable. They almost all have a clear forum they should be in, but they aren't. And that is not because we have to many forums, but because posters are too lazy to think before posting.

Calm down William, this is only raising blood pressure. I understand your problem, but unfortunately I think that you are expecting a bit too much of it. In this case the problem is not in the moderators/administrators camp, it is a clear user camp problem. What ever the mods/admins do, some users will always be careless/lazy/stupid. If you are an extremly organised person this may offend you, but for me I just don't care: if I want to know something concerning CEP or audio in general I just search. If I find it that way fine, otherwise I ask.

The only solution I see out of this is a completly different approach to the "forum". Something like a mail list where the user can put filters on it, so that it fall apart in sub-forums as he wishes. Just a pile of posts organised in threads, and each can represent them as a forum . But this would require some very hard thinking/programming. Sometime, someone should take a look at the M2 mail engine of opera and use it to make a forum application out of it.....

And Steve, I'm getting rather tired of the snooty, rude, and arrogant offhanded comments.

Well stop making them, then.

And before you say that this is another one, you should bear in mind that I've had PM complaints and emails about your attitude - at least one of which I couldn't even begin to repeat. You should seriously consider your own attitude here, not mine. I merely respond to you in the way that you write - and there's another example below...

I don't mean to say that it's 'bad'. Just that it could be much better. And you disagree with that ?

This has already been more than adequately answered by Radiokenny, but basically, it amounts to two arrogant statements made in a snooty manner. And this is this way of writing (and possibly thinking)  that pisses me, and quite a few other people, off, I'm afraid. Some of these other people are perhaps more polite than I am - I wouldn't disagree with that for a moment. But I can, and will, respond to people in accordance with either their obvious, or stated attitudes. So if you don't like it, then don't start it.

I don't mean to say that it's 'bad'. Just that it could be much better. And you disagree with that ?

This has already been more than adequately answered by Radiokenny, but basically, it amounts to two arrogant statements made in a snooty manner.

If you take that to be arrogant and snooty, then we have some sort of deeply fundamental language barrier going on here. Our disagreement has centered around my contention that the forum could be changed for the better, and yours that it's as close to being optimal as anyone could expect.

And the quoted sentence summarizes this. Arrogant....? Snooty.....?  Where ?

And if people feel so strongly about my behavior.....why don't I get any Pm's ? Why aren't there any posts reflecting disagreement or distaste ? I count one in general disagreement. And finally, why would they complain to you about it ? Unless they're suggesting you take some sort of "action", which would be completely out-of-line. You haven't had to censor anything I've said, and neither one of us have technically done any real flaming.........Is this a forum or not ?

You guys aren't fooling anyone. We know that "SteveG" and "William Rose" are actually the same person.

Chris

This is a Loopology based thread, or so the subject line states.  Seems like the longer we go on this the more the vebage sounds looped...

And you can take that any ol' way y'all want.